Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

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roster
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Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by roster » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:21 pm

I give up.

D.C. is loon city.

Healthcare provision seeks to embrace prayer treatments
A little-noticed measure would put Christian Science healing sessions on the same footing as clinical medicine. Critics say it violates the separation of church and state.

The provision was inserted by Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah).

November 3, 2009
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Reporting from Washington - Backed by some of the most powerful members of the Senate, a little-noticed provision in the healthcare overhaul bill would require insurers to consider covering Christian Science prayer treatments as medical expenses.

The provision was inserted by Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah) with the support of Democratic Sens. John F. Kerry and the late Edward M. Kennedy, both of Massachusetts, home to the headquarters of the Church of Christ, Scientist.

The measure would put Christian Science prayer treatments -- which substitute for or supplement medical treatments -- on the same footing as clinical medicine. While not mentioning the church by name, it would prohibit discrimination against "religious and spiritual healthcare."

It would have a minor effect on the overall cost of the bill -- Christian Science is a small church, and the prayer treatments can cost as little as $20 a day. But it has nevertheless stirred an intense controversy over the constitutional separation of church and state, and the possibility that other churches might seek reimbursements for so-called spiritual healing.

Phil Davis, a senior Christian Science Church official, said prayer treatment was an effective alternative to conventional healthcare.

"We are making the case for this, believing there is a connection between healthcare and spirituality," said Davis, who distributed 11,000 letters last week to Senate officials urging support for the measure.

"We think this is an important aspect of the solution, when you are talking about not only keeping the cost down, but finding effective healthcare," he said.

The provision would apply only to insurance policies offered on a proposed exchange where consumers could shop for plans that meet standards set by the government.

But critics say the measure could have a broader effect, conferring new status and medical legitimacy on practices that lie outside the realm of science.

Annie Laurie Gaylor, co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a group of atheists and agnostics that promotes separation of church and state, said the opportunity to receive payment for spiritual care could encourage other groups to seek similar status.

"This would be an absolute invitation to organize," Gaylor said.

The Christian Science Church, which was founded in Boston in 1879, has pushed throughout its history to secure official recognition for its paid prayer practitioners. Their job, as outlined by the church's founder, Mary Baker Eddy, was to pray for healing and charge for treatment at rates similar to those of medical doctors.

In the early 20th century, the church sought recognition from state regulators so the practitioners would not be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license. Criminal courts have convicted Christian Scientists in cases where children have died after visiting prayer healers instead of receiving conventional medical care. The church says no such incidents have occurred for two decades.

About 90 years ago, private insurance companies began paying for Christian Science prayer treatments, but more recently, managed-care insurers declined reimbursements, insisting on paying for care that produced proven medical results.

The Internal Revenue Service allows the cost of the prayer sessions to be counted among itemized medical expenses for income tax purposes -- one of the only religious treatments explicitly identified as deductible by the IRS. Some federal medical insurance programs, including those for military families, also reimburse for prayer treatment.

The spiritual healing provision was introduced in the House by Rep. John Shimkus (R-Ill.), whose district includes a Christian Science school, Principia College.

Two committees in the House voted to include the measure in their versions of the overhaul, but Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-San Francisco) stripped it from the consolidated House bill last week after a few members argued it was unconstitutional.

Erwin Chemerinsky, dean of the UC Irvine School of Law, said the provision raised serious questions about government support of religion.

"I think when Congress mandates that health companies provide coverage for prayer, it has the effect of the government advancing religion," he said.

The legal issue, however, may not be cut and dried.

Michael McConnell, who heads the Stanford University Constitutional Law Center, said that "as long as patients are the ones who choose, and religious choices are given no legal preference or advantage, the proposals would appear to be consistent with constitutional standards."

In the Senate, the provision is included in a version of the bill drafted by the health committee. Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) is considering whether to include it in the consolidated bill he will send to the Senate floor.

Kerry's spokeswoman, Whitney Smith, disputed that insurers would be forced to cover prayer. Instead, she said, "the amendment would prevent insurers from discriminating against benefits that qualify as spiritual care if the care is recognized by the IRS as a legitimate medical expense. Plans are free to impose standards on spiritual and medical care as long as both are treated equally. It does not mandate that plans provide spiritual care."

Hatch said, "I offered this amendment because I believe that everyone, regardless of religious affiliation, should have access to healthcare."

But Dr. Norman Fost, a pediatrician and medical ethicist at the University of Wisconsin, said the measure went against the goal of reducing healthcare costs by improving evidence-based medical practices.

"They want a special exception for people who use unproved treatments, and they also want to get paid for it," he said. "They want people who use prayer to have it just automatically accepted as a legitimate therapy."

Christian Science leaders say many critics misunderstand their faith. Christian Scientists do not reject medical care, church leaders said. Instead, they promote spiritual healing and do not interfere with decisions about whether to pursue medical help.

Davis has been trained as a practitioner and still occasionally treats the sick.

"We'll talk to them about their relationship to God," he said. "We'll talk to them about citations or biblical passages they might study. We refer to it as treatment. It's an affirmation of their relationship with God, and the understanding that comes from their prayer, of their relationship with God."

During the day, Davis may see multiple patients and pray for them at different moments. He charges them $20 to $40 for the day, saying, "I think that it would be considered modest by any standard."

The church, which has seen a steady decline in adherents, does not reveal membership numbers. It claims between 1,700 and 1,800 congregations in more than 60 countries.

Davis said the church consulted legal experts to develop legislation that was constitutional and consonant with the overall goals of healthcare reform. It also hired a major Washington law firm, Mayer Brown, to lobby for the provision.

"We think this is an important aspect of the solution," Davis said, arguing that Christian Scientists are leading the fight for all who believe in spiritual healing. "We don't believe there should be hurdles between an individual and spiritual treatment that could be the most important solution to healthcare in this country."

http://www.latimes.com/features/health/ ... full.story
Rooster
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SleepyT
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Re: Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by SleepyT » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:33 pm

politics AND religion!!!! oh no...not going there!
"Knowledge is power."

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Re: Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by roster » Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:40 pm

SleepyT wrote:politics AND religion!!!! oh no...not going there!
Yes you are. You will be paying for it!
Rooster
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Re: Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by two » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:56 pm

rooster wrote:
SleepyT wrote:politics AND religion!!!! oh no...not going there!
Yes you are. You will be paying for it!
We already do. The trick is figuring out how to pay less, hopefully by removing a few of the middle men...

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Re: Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by TWW » Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:29 am

Unfortunately, Sr. Hatch has a habit of legitimizing a lot of junk science through legislation. It is due to his efforts that we have the multi-billion dollar "nutritional supplements" industry -- which doesn't have to prove efficacy, but only harmlessness.

I realize that this has resulted in some good things getting out there, like Glucosamine/Chondroitin (well, sorta good, for some of us), but those are the exceptions. Mostly, it's garbage.

My personal biases on this issue are excellent, as I believe both in miracles and in double-blind peer reviewed studies.

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Re: Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by katcw » Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:18 am

Rooster: What is the source of the article you posted? There's a lot of stuff written out there that has no basis in fact, so I'm trying to find out the legitimacy of the report. Just the librarian in me showing

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Re: Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by Julie » Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:33 am

Believe it or not, this is not junk anything. I am the last person on earth to normally endorse anything "religious" as an answer for science (or much else), but if you understand that controlled, blind and legitimate studies have been done on this particular aspect of prayer by Christian Scientists actually proving that it works even when the patients are unaware of its taking place, and even when they are (like me) atheists, then you might not be so quick to trash the idea. I have no idea how or why it works, but it does, and you can find out more about it if you do a little research. Sen. Kennedy, I'm sure, would never have backed it if he thought for a minute it was junk, and did believe in separation of church and state. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater this time.

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Re: Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by LinkC » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:03 am

It appears, from the article, that Ted Kennedy is supporting this from beyond the pale..

So there must be something to it!

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Re: Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by roster » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:37 am

Julie wrote:... then you might not be so quick to trash the idea. .....
By "the idea", you mean prayer. You jumped straight from the forest to a tree. I said, "D.C. is loon city." I did not "trash" prayer.

I do trash the idea of paying for prayer. Totally ridiculous. Both for the payee and the payer.

I also trash the idea of redistributing wealth to pay for prayer.

I also trash the current bill which is 2000+ pages of bureaucratic nightmare and disastrous unintended consequences. It is also another illegal act in violation of our U.S. Constitution. It is also an economic train wreck which even our own Congressional Budget Office says we absolutely can't afford.

The bill should no longer be referred to as Obamacare. Our President is not at all involved with Congress on the bill. He is not at all telling them what he wants in the bill. It is no longer his bill; in fact, it never was.
Last edited by roster on Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

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roster
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Re: Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by roster » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:39 am

katcw wrote:Rooster: What is the source of the article you posted? There's a lot of stuff written out there that has no basis in fact, so I'm trying to find out the legitimacy of the report. Just the librarian in me showing
It certainly seems like it is untrue. My source is the L.A. Times. The link is right there at the end of the quote - check it out. Would be nice to find out it is not true.
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

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pagebypage
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Re: Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by pagebypage » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:52 am

What does a prayer session cost anyway?
Seems this shouldn't induce more than a dollar or two per session, I would think.

ScrappinMom
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Re: Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by ScrappinMom » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:57 am

Medicare has paid for "inpatient" care at Christian Science Sanatoria for many years, however they are now referred to as "Religious Nonmedical Health Care Institutions".

How's that for government talk...nonmedical health care.

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Re: Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by potholerepairman » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:45 am

pagebypage wrote:What does a prayer session cost anyway?
.
A couple of buttons if you rip them off of the pew cushions and place them in the collection basket acting like they are real coins.

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Re: Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by PST » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:13 pm

katcw wrote:Rooster: What is the source of the article you posted? There's a lot of stuff written out there that has no basis in fact, so I'm trying to find out the legitimacy of the report. Just the librarian in me showing
I followed the link, and there it is in the LA Times for November 3. It is a dreadful example of journalism, though, isn't it?. It refers to this having been included in one of the versions of the bill reported out of committee (three Senate committees considered the bill) and talks of the support of Sen. Kennedy, all showing that the writer must be discussing something that happened months ago. He never says if it is still in the bill. He quotes all kind of people disagreeing about what the language means, but doesn't quote any of the wording so we can see for ourselves.

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Re: Obamacare Will Pay for Prayer

Post by lok » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:45 pm

If you don't feel like reading the entire health care bill and want to listen to voice actors read it to you......try hearthebill.org

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