TRAINING YOURSELF NOT TO MOUTH BREATHE

newname · Post by **newname** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:35 pm

I can't understand how you can train yourself to to something while you are asleep. Some of you have said you trained yourself not to moutbreathe. If you are sleeping how can you tell how you are breathing? I would love to know how to train myself to keep my mouth closed during sleep. Any instructions would be appreciated. Thanks

2flamingos · Post by **2flamingos** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:52 pm

I guess you could call it "forced learning".

I started with a chin strap for several months. Then experimented by not using it and saw that my numbers and leak rate were no different. I noticed that they seemed to be going up some so I tried taping my mouth for several weeks. My numbers dropped again and stayed constant. At that point I tried not taping, and lo and behold numbers remained constant. Every now and then I notice that my numbers start to go up again and/or I wake up because air is rushing out of my mouth. When that happens, I go back to taping for a while.

It's not perfect, but for me it is a heck of a lot better than a FFM (they drive me crazy - not that that is a long drive).

Just because you are asleep does not mean you cannot learn - look at folks that listen to languages while asleep and learn them. Or, folks that sew a tennis ball on the back of a shirt to keep them from sleeping on thier back. After a while they can remove the ball and not sleep on their back.

Yes, you may on occasion revert to the "bad behavior", but normally it does not take as long to relearn the "good behavior" as it did originally.

briank · Post by **briank** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:25 pm

Unless you sleep on the floor, or with a bedrail, you probably learned not to roll out of bed while you were asleep.

You might attempt to keep the tip of your tongue against the roof of your mouth, possibly with your lips slightly apart. I get a slight vacuum effect, and slightly more with my lips apart (I have no clue why). Your mileage (and anatomical specifics) may vary.

I eventually get chipmunk cheeks, and then it doesn't matter what I do with my tongue.

millich · Post by **millich** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:49 pm

I have to give my sleep doc credit for my ability to sleep with my mouth closed. How did he do it? He told me - Very Firmly - that I WOULD be able to sleep with my mouth closed on CPAP. He was very direct when he said "Of course you open your mouth when your airway becomes occluded. Think about it. Anytime we don't get enough air, we open our mouths. With CPAP, you WILL be getting enough air. You WON'T need to open your mouth."

I took that ball and ran with it. I tell myself repeatedly (when I want to open my mouth), "You ARE getting plenty of air. You don't need to open your mouth".

It sounds crazy but it's worked for me. Or at least it did until I just jinxed it. I'll probably have a bad night tonight. Rats.

Spirit · Post by **Spirit** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:09 am

Best mouth training for me, so far is. Mouth taping. 0.0 leaks. When I was mouth breathing, my leak data was increasing. The first few day's, even with tape, I still tried to open my mouth, and one night I opened my mouth and tape popped right off, or I would awaken with lips slightly apart.

It's going on 3 weeks, now I awaken with my lips still sealed, which means I'm keeping my mouth closed, have a hybrid on the way, so no more tape use soon.

For those that can train themselves, that's awesome. But for me it's the tape or hybrid mask.

SleepyT · Post by **SleepyT** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:57 am

it can be done! last night i woke up because my mouth was open...so i have trained myself to wake up whenever my lips sound like a motor boat! most of the time my leak rate is 0. i blame myself for last night....i had 2 glasses of wine with dinner. got a little TOO relaxed!

keep working on programming yourself. it should work!

karessamom · Post by **karessamom** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:45 am

millich wrote:I have to give my sleep doc credit for my ability to sleep with my mouth closed. How did he do it? He told me - Very Firmly - that I WOULD be able to sleep with my mouth closed on CPAP. He was very direct when he said "Of course you open your mouth when your airway becomes occluded. Think about it. Anytime we don't get enough air, we open our mouths. With CPAP, you WILL be getting enough air. You WON'T need to open your mouth."

I took that ball and ran with it. I tell myself repeatedly (when I want to open my mouth), "You ARE getting plenty of air. You don't need to open your mouth".

It sounds crazy but it's worked for me. Or at least it did until I just jinxed it. I'll probably have a bad night tonight. Rats.

That makes total sense to me! I'm wondering if that's the reason I wake up with dry mouth all the time? (i'm still waiting for my CPAP equipment)

Pugsy · Post by **Pugsy** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:56 am

karessamom wrote: That makes total sense to me! I'm wondering if that's the reason I wake up with dry mouth all the time? (i'm still waiting for my CPAP equipment)

You know I thought I was mouth breathing all the time (before CPAP) because I woke up with dry mouth and often a sore throat from snoring. When I first started on the machine with the nasal pillows I had lots of snores showing on the reports and some huge zipper leaks. I did the chin strap, tape and/or poligrip thing for about 3 weeks and then sort of faded out of doing it. Now I rarely see any snores on the report and the zippers are much smaller and sometimes zero leak rate. I think most of my zipper leaks are from tossing and turning because if I take a 2 hour nap, I stay in one position and have the prettiest flat leak line you could ever wish for and almost always zero AHI.

millich · Post by **millich** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:17 am

Pugsy wrote: I think most of my zipper leaks are from ....

I should probably know this but what are zipper leaks?

Pugsy · Post by **Pugsy** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:39 am

millich wrote: Pugsy wrote: I think most of my zipper leaks are from ....

I should probably know this but what are zipper leaks?

The leak rate line has areas that have little "zipper appearing" lines. Not nice and flat but not huge large leaks either. This image has sort of an example. Sometimes I get events with them, sometimes not.

Jason S. · Post by **Jason S.** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:23 pm

briank wrote:Unless you sleep on the floor, or with a bed rail, you probably learned not to roll out of bed while you were asleep.

Ah, this reminds me of an anecdote from my college days. Two friends from high school came to visit me at college. I had bunk beds in my dorm with no railing. When deciding on which bunk to take, one friend said, "I don't want to take the top, what if I fall off while I'm asleep?". The second friend replied " Have you ever fallen out of your regular bed while sleeping?". The first friend then said "Well, no, I haven't. I guess you're right. I'll take the top bunk". Well sure enough in the middle of the night the first friend falls out of the top bunk and crashes onto the floor.

The story is absolutely true and the only part I omitted was that they both got extremely wasted during the course of the day and night leading up to the incident.

deerhound · Post by **deerhound** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:12 pm

I started on a full face mask. I had read somewhere that hospitals don't like FF masks ( I don't know whether true or not) so I bought a Swift II and set up my spare machine in the den and started practicing keeping my mouth closed, since I was going to have carpal tunnel surgery. I practiced for a few hours a day just watching TV in the den. After a couple of weeks I figured I was good to go for the hospital.

After a few months of FF mask use I had a couple of really bad nights where my nose got congested and the seal on the FF mask seemed to be closing my nasal passages even worse. I started getting claustrophobic feelings and I resorted to my Swift II. There were a few nights when I would wake up with my mouth dry from leaks but it kept getting better every night. I concentrated on keeping my tongue pressed to the top of my mouth at my front teeth. It took a while but I now sleep quite well with only a couple of bad mouth leaks at the most every night. It can be done!

I still breathe through my mouth when I'm awake (as I said a few months ago I am a neanderthal), but I find it easy to breath with just a nasal mask using my machine at night.

Dale

Heavy Zs · Post by **Heavy Zs** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:43 am

Pre CPAP (a little over two weeks), my mouth would drop open in my sleep as I tried to breathe.

I have only used a nasal mask and a nasal pillow, and have been able to sleep without mouth breathing. The air pressure of the CPAP makes it very noticeable when my mouth opens (I hate talking with it on). It is actually not very easy/comfortable to open my mouth under pressure, it takes a conscious effort. I imagine that the only reason I did mouth breathe in my sleep was because I was gasping for air, and if you take away the apneas, you take away the gasp?

Since my obstructive apneas have been completely eliminated, my HI is low, and my leakage is reasonable, I would say I have been trained not to mouth breathe, but I really didn't do anything to achieve it other than to plug the hose to my nose. I still don't feel a whole lot more rested, but I am hopeful it will work itself out if I continue to monitor and fine tune my situation.

Catnapper · Post by **Catnapper** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:58 am

Heavy Zs -

I think it gets easier to talk with the mask on after you have worn it for an hour or so and with practice. I can't talk right away, but if I wake up later, I can talk relatively well with no obvious large leaks. I sound odd, but I can do it. I don't know why it matters how long I have been breathing with the mask. I have been using xpap for over 3 years too. Plenty of practice.

Catnapper - Joanie

Silver Pelt · Post by **Silver Pelt** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:10 pm

This is slightly off-topic.

The Encoreviewer report shown in Pugsy's zipper appearing lines post illustrate something I am currently investigating.

Notice that most but not all OA flags occur at the same time as a change in the reported flow rate. EncoreViewer incorrectly labels the trace "leak rate" but it is the combination of normal mask venting, leaks, and perhaps even normal respiratory flow. I suspect this trace is actually the processed pneumotachometer signal. OA and H flags are recorded based on meeting certain criteria for changes in the flow pattern, typically a given % reduction in flow over a specified time. I believe that changes in the leak rate from disturbing the mask can sometimes, perhaps frequently, create false flags.

This is important because some xPAP users have difficulty achieving perfect seals. While leaks due to mouth breathing certainly compromise therapy, leaks from a full face mask should not so long as the leaks are less than the flow limit of the machine. If the machines are creating phantom OA events, we may be worrying about leaks when there is no need to do so.

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