Went googling around today and found an article about OSA and the prefrontal cortex...by Dean Beebe and David Gozal. It talks about how OSA and oxygen deprivation cause 'executive dysfuntion'....caused by dysfunction of the prefront regions of the brain cortex. There's (what I think is an interesting) chart on page 3..(I'd post it if I knew how) which lists the Adverse Daytime Effects..such as:
Problems in mentally manipulating information
Poor planning and haphazard execution of plans
Disorganization
Poor judgement/decision making
Rigid thinking
Difficulty in maintaining attention & motivation
Emotional lability (mood swings)
Overactivity/impulsivity (especially in children)
Here's the website for those who wish to slog through all the details. http://www.sciencesleep.org/ziliao/Obst ... ficits.pdf
I don't know about you, but I closely resemble some of those adverse effects! Particularly the disorganization, difficulty in maintaining attention and poor planning! But I'm getting better..........SLOW-ly....
It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
"Knowledge is power."
Re: It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
Wow! I am glad to see that list. I now have an excuse for all the problems in my life. It's not my fault -- it's my apnea Hope my wife buys this.
Re: It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
eureka wrote, "Wow! I am glad to see that list. I now have an excuse for all the problems in my life. It's not my fault -- it's my apnea Hope my wife buys this."
right! but then you'll note...those symptoms are for untreated sleep apnea patients! sorry....your excuse will only last a short while.
right! but then you'll note...those symptoms are for untreated sleep apnea patients! sorry....your excuse will only last a short while.
"Knowledge is power."
Re: It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
before my apnea was diagnosed, my fatigue was worst on waking and I couldnt carry on a conversation if the phone rang early
untreated apnea sufferers are known to have lots of car crashes, perhaps not all from falling asleep at the wheel, but by poor judgement due to fatigue effecting the brain
those who like me had to deal with fatigue for years before diagnosis have perhaps learned to cope with fatigue more severe than from any other cause
untreated apnea sufferers are known to have lots of car crashes, perhaps not all from falling asleep at the wheel, but by poor judgement due to fatigue effecting the brain
those who like me had to deal with fatigue for years before diagnosis have perhaps learned to cope with fatigue more severe than from any other cause
australian,anxiety and insomnia, a CPAP user since 1995, self diagnosed after years of fatigue, 2 cheap CPAPs and respironics comfortgell nose only mask. not one of my many doctors ever asked me if I snored
Re: It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
know what you mean, harry. morning time is not my best time of day either!
"Knowledge is power."
Re: It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
Gee, sleepyt, thanks I think. During my recent several month loose lips adventure in losing therapy air, I experienced all of these...again. I really slid backwards and being laid off at the same time has just made it nex to impossible to deal with.
I am recovering since switching to the Hybrid but boyoboy it is slow! I'll begin slogging thru the article this week.SleepyT wrote:...OSA and oxygen deprivation cause 'executive dysfuntion'....caused by dysfunction of the prefront regions of the brain cortex....lists the Adverse Daytime Effects..such as:
Problems in mentally manipulating information
Poor planning and haphazard execution of plans
Disorganization
Poor judgement/decision making
Rigid thinking
Difficulty in maintaining attention & motivation
Emotional lability (mood swings)
Overactivity/impulsivity (especially in children)
ResMed S9 range 9.8-17, RespCare Hybrid FFM
Never, never, never, never say never.
Never, never, never, never say never.
Re: It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
Muse,
I know what you mean....when you said, 'thanks, I think'. It's good news and bad news, right? But to me...I find comfort in knowing what has been happening can be explained more or less....that there is a reason behind it. Otherwise, I found myself (over the last couple of years) wondering what the heck was going on. I think you question yourself...like if your motivation goes away...you think...man, am i getting lazy? is it because i'm getting older? have i just lost my mojo...? time for a career change? then you read an article like that one...and you say oh, oxygen deprivation can cause you to lose motivation....so now, there's a clinical reason....and no, I am NOT losing my mind. or if all of a sudden you realize you can no longer concentrate or focus on anything for any period of time...you wonder...is it menopause? is it boredom? there were times when i just thought i was going crazy! it's a relief to know it is the effects of sleep apnea....and it is treatable! (of course, it could be several things all at once! but at least one of them is treatable! )
I know a lot of people hate the mask...but if that's what it takes to get my life back...it's no problem!
I know what you mean....when you said, 'thanks, I think'. It's good news and bad news, right? But to me...I find comfort in knowing what has been happening can be explained more or less....that there is a reason behind it. Otherwise, I found myself (over the last couple of years) wondering what the heck was going on. I think you question yourself...like if your motivation goes away...you think...man, am i getting lazy? is it because i'm getting older? have i just lost my mojo...? time for a career change? then you read an article like that one...and you say oh, oxygen deprivation can cause you to lose motivation....so now, there's a clinical reason....and no, I am NOT losing my mind. or if all of a sudden you realize you can no longer concentrate or focus on anything for any period of time...you wonder...is it menopause? is it boredom? there were times when i just thought i was going crazy! it's a relief to know it is the effects of sleep apnea....and it is treatable! (of course, it could be several things all at once! but at least one of them is treatable! )
I know a lot of people hate the mask...but if that's what it takes to get my life back...it's no problem!
"Knowledge is power."
Re: It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
Hi SleepyT,
I apologise in advance if it turns out that my post turns out to be gibberish--just humor me if it is. Smile and nod. I am tired, but I didn't take my mask off in my sleep last night--first time ever!!! Hooray! Here is my tired comment.
I haven't read that particular article yet, but am familiar with the concepts because I was diagnosed with ADHD as a child and rediagnosed as an adult. My son also has it. I have done a fair bit of research, read studies, attended when experts in the field came and spoke etc. and when I was in university, I wrote some papers on ADHD to to satisfy my own curiosity. I am sure they sounded much less gibberishy uh gibberesque, you know what i mean, than the following, because I got good marks on them.
ADHD includes some or all of the symptoms you list. There is a lot of support in the research through MRI (and other methods that I can't remember the name ofs ) of looking inside people's brains that impaired pre-frontal cortex function in patients with ADHD.
I saw a presentation by a scientist conducting a very large biofeedback clinic (she conducted prelim studies and was continuing to study some of patients they were treating) She explained that people with ADHD have many of the the difficulty attending and concentrating, etc. executive function symptoms, because they don't have enough Bata waves and when they try to concentrate, the good old Alpha (awake but sleepy waves) get in the way. More sleep stuff.
Here's where it gets interesting--for me--(smile and nod here) People with ADHD (pure ADHD) almost always have sleep problems as part of the disorder. Since I have started to get to the bottom of my sleep issues, I have found some studies that correlate ADHD and sleep apnea. I have also found some studies that show that children with sleep apnea display exactly the same symptoms as ADHD--sleep deprivation. When they sleep deprived "normal" children they started acting like they had ADHD. Other studies have shown sleep deprivation looks like fibromyalgia as well.
So my theory is that once I get my sleep issues under control, I will find symptoms go away (ADHD and fibromyalgia (gp thinks I have FM i don't agree). Now I am kind of strange, but I think that is exciting.
Smile and nod. I won't know the difference.
R
I apologise in advance if it turns out that my post turns out to be gibberish--just humor me if it is. Smile and nod. I am tired, but I didn't take my mask off in my sleep last night--first time ever!!! Hooray! Here is my tired comment.
I haven't read that particular article yet, but am familiar with the concepts because I was diagnosed with ADHD as a child and rediagnosed as an adult. My son also has it. I have done a fair bit of research, read studies, attended when experts in the field came and spoke etc. and when I was in university, I wrote some papers on ADHD to to satisfy my own curiosity. I am sure they sounded much less gibberishy uh gibberesque, you know what i mean, than the following, because I got good marks on them.
ADHD includes some or all of the symptoms you list. There is a lot of support in the research through MRI (and other methods that I can't remember the name ofs ) of looking inside people's brains that impaired pre-frontal cortex function in patients with ADHD.
I saw a presentation by a scientist conducting a very large biofeedback clinic (she conducted prelim studies and was continuing to study some of patients they were treating) She explained that people with ADHD have many of the the difficulty attending and concentrating, etc. executive function symptoms, because they don't have enough Bata waves and when they try to concentrate, the good old Alpha (awake but sleepy waves) get in the way. More sleep stuff.
Here's where it gets interesting--for me--(smile and nod here) People with ADHD (pure ADHD) almost always have sleep problems as part of the disorder. Since I have started to get to the bottom of my sleep issues, I have found some studies that correlate ADHD and sleep apnea. I have also found some studies that show that children with sleep apnea display exactly the same symptoms as ADHD--sleep deprivation. When they sleep deprived "normal" children they started acting like they had ADHD. Other studies have shown sleep deprivation looks like fibromyalgia as well.
So my theory is that once I get my sleep issues under control, I will find symptoms go away (ADHD and fibromyalgia (gp thinks I have FM i don't agree). Now I am kind of strange, but I think that is exciting.
Smile and nod. I won't know the difference.
R
Re: It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
ps. Your brain is in your head.
Re: It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
By gollygosh Rebecca, I think you're onto something here, that ADHD might well turn out to be monstrous sleep issues. I've had a really hard time accepting that the huge #s of kids and now adults we read about really have ADHD. Sure some do, have a friend whose son is still suffering severely and he's now 23. For a while, I blamed a lot of it on consuming too many veggie fats (omega 6 essential fatty acids) as that messes with the integrity of the cell membrane which is critical to good cell-to-cell communication between brain cells and supplementing with omega 3s (fish oils, walnuts, etc....the fat we are designed to use in the cell membrane but sadly lacking in most diets) has been shown to help a nice percentage. But maybe it is chronic sleep deprivation at heart. I short slept most of my life trying to do too much in too little time, so sacrificed sleep -- bad, bad decision as it always left me tired, cranky, moody, and affected my thinking & memory...so I played with how little I could sleep worknights and slept in on the weekends. I think many Americans fall into this and with our current ecoenomic situation, I'm reading articles about how little people who still have jobs are sleeping in order to put in more hrs at work. Last one I skimmed said mgrs are cutting their sleep hrs by 20% --scary. Thanks for posting that connection!Rebecca R wrote:...
ResMed S9 range 9.8-17, RespCare Hybrid FFM
Never, never, never, never say never.
Never, never, never, never say never.
Re: It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
rebecca,
that was an amazing post! i followed your thoughts...didn't have to smile and nod at all! and like muse, i agree about the connection between sleep issues and adhd. i seem to be a magnet for adhd folks....my last 3 employers had it. (and one of them is also on CPAP! go figure!) i know, just from conversations with them over the years, many of them struggle with sleep issues....so more verification for your theory. bravo, dear rebecca! i'll be curious to see where this thread goes from here.......perhaps more stories to validate your train of thought! i remain impressed with you!
t.
that was an amazing post! i followed your thoughts...didn't have to smile and nod at all! and like muse, i agree about the connection between sleep issues and adhd. i seem to be a magnet for adhd folks....my last 3 employers had it. (and one of them is also on CPAP! go figure!) i know, just from conversations with them over the years, many of them struggle with sleep issues....so more verification for your theory. bravo, dear rebecca! i'll be curious to see where this thread goes from here.......perhaps more stories to validate your train of thought! i remain impressed with you!
t.
"Knowledge is power."
Re: It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
Oh, and congrats on keeping your mask on! Yay!Rebecca R wrote:... I am tired, but I didn't take my mask off in my sleep last night--first time ever!!! Hooray!
"Knowledge is power."
Re: It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
RR, Welcome! I have enjoyed following your progress.Rebecca R wrote:I am tired, but I didn't take my mask off in my sleep last night--first time ever!!!
Smile and nod. I won't know the difference. R
Congrats! on keeping your mask on.
I was able to follow your commentary on ADHD very well.
I had all those symptons and depression to go along w/it.
All of that has been remedied w/my cpap therapy.
It will be for you too.
You have a great attitude.
....and you're willing to go that extra mile to makeRebecca R wrote:ps. Your brain is in your head.
sure we have the complete picture.
"If your therapy is improving your health but you're not doing anything
to see or feel those changes, you'll never know what you're capable of."
I said that.
to see or feel those changes, you'll never know what you're capable of."
I said that.
Re: It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
I just wanna know if this is admissable in the court of law?
I'm sure that soo many here have even more issues than they share with us. Which makes it difficult to dx from the 2 sentences they will offer about themselves.
RR - Congrats - keeping the mask on is a BIG step. Stick with it.
I'm sure that soo many here have even more issues than they share with us. Which makes it difficult to dx from the 2 sentences they will offer about themselves.
RR - Congrats - keeping the mask on is a BIG step. Stick with it.
_________________
| Humidifier: HC150 Heated Humidifier With Hose, 2 Chambers and Stand |
| Additional Comments: New users can't remember they can't remember YET! |
BeganCPAP31Jan2007;AHI<0.5
I have no doubt, how I sleep affects every waking moment.
I am making progress-NOW I remember that I can't remember
If this isn’t rocket science why are there so many spaceshots?
Be your own healthcare advocate!
I have no doubt, how I sleep affects every waking moment.
I am making progress-NOW I remember that I can't remember
If this isn’t rocket science why are there so many spaceshots?
Be your own healthcare advocate!
Re: It's not all in your head--or maybe it is!
If I had known this forum was full of people who could understand me and share my sense of humour, I would have joined long before my OSA Dx.
Actually, I am always amazed when people understand me when I am having one of those foggy days--even if what I say makes sense, subjectively it doesn't feel like it is going to. I keep forgetting that pretty much everyone here understands what I am talking about. It is difficult to explain to normal sleepers- who simply-cannot-function the next day if they have one bad night what sleep inertia or brain fog feel like. I am sure people don't believe me when I tell them how bad my sleep is. I struggle to express myself because of the sleep deprived memory recall issues. It is a lot easier when writing because I can use [insert word if i ever remember it here] and just keep going, even though it often takes me a long time.
Since, like you SleepyT, I don't keep my mouth shut very well during the day, so eventually I get my point across. I know many times I talk to keep myself alert, there doesn't have to be anyone listening or present for me to keep talking
I am there is a connection to poor diet. I can't imagine our neurotransmitters can function at optimum level while we eat a diet of Mcdonald's and junk food like many children do. Have you fed your kid's myelin sheath today? I think that the fast pace of life these days and the barrage of information/stimulus/new mediums of communication children and adults are faced with make matters worse. It is a familiar sight to see kids and adults walking together while texting on their cell phones. I have actually asked people if they are talking to each other!
How long did it take you to catch up on your sleep once you started looking after your self?
I remember reading some articles before this economic situation hit that outlined how people are not only getting fewer hours sleep than in the past, leading to deficit, but also have the idea that 7 hours of sleep is healthy, so they are shortchanging an already shortchanged level. (so far, I only dream of 7 uninterupted hours of sleep)
Thanks all for the congrats and encouragement about the mask. Today i am going to see a lady about my results and a mask, and tomorrow the doc.
R
PS has anyone tried this cute little sleep test? I keep failing miserably; http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sleep/sheep/
Actually, I am always amazed when people understand me when I am having one of those foggy days--even if what I say makes sense, subjectively it doesn't feel like it is going to. I keep forgetting that pretty much everyone here understands what I am talking about. It is difficult to explain to normal sleepers- who simply-cannot-function the next day if they have one bad night what sleep inertia or brain fog feel like. I am sure people don't believe me when I tell them how bad my sleep is. I struggle to express myself because of the sleep deprived memory recall issues. It is a lot easier when writing because I can use [insert word if i ever remember it here] and just keep going, even though it often takes me a long time.
Since, like you SleepyT, I don't keep my mouth shut very well during the day, so eventually I get my point across. I know many times I talk to keep myself alert, there doesn't have to be anyone listening or present for me to keep talking
That's not what they told me in school Sometimes I can't find my brain and am sure it has left my head. I was just reminding SleepyT in case she forgets sometimes too.carbonman wrote:You have a great attitude.
Muse--While I was responding to your post last night, a violent wave of nausea hit me. I hit save and ran from the room with a green face. Either a side effect from my Rx or I food poisoned myself. I woke up this morning feeling like I had spent the night with a bottle of tequila and a lime. I went back to finish my post and poof, it was gone--no draft saved. So all the ideas that I thought were brilliant last night are gone...Muse-Inc wrote: By gollygosh Rebecca, I think you're
onto something here, that ADHD might well turn out to be monstrous
sleep issues. .... I blamed a lot of it on consuming too many veggie fats (omega 6
essential fatty acids) as that messes with the integrity of the cell
membrane which is critical to good cell-to-cell communication between
brain cells and supplementing with omega 3s (fish oils, walnuts,
etc....the fat we are designed to use in the cell membrane but sadly
lacking in most diets)...
I am there is a connection to poor diet. I can't imagine our neurotransmitters can function at optimum level while we eat a diet of Mcdonald's and junk food like many children do. Have you fed your kid's myelin sheath today? I think that the fast pace of life these days and the barrage of information/stimulus/new mediums of communication children and adults are faced with make matters worse. It is a familiar sight to see kids and adults walking together while texting on their cell phones. I have actually asked people if they are talking to each other!
How long did it take you to catch up on your sleep once you started looking after your self?
I remember reading some articles before this economic situation hit that outlined how people are not only getting fewer hours sleep than in the past, leading to deficit, but also have the idea that 7 hours of sleep is healthy, so they are shortchanging an already shortchanged level. (so far, I only dream of 7 uninterupted hours of sleep)
You planning on taking someone to court for poor exectutive function? Or using it as a defense?GumbyCT wrote:I just wanna know if this is admissable in the court of law?
Thanks all for the congrats and encouragement about the mask. Today i am going to see a lady about my results and a mask, and tomorrow the doc.
R
PS has anyone tried this cute little sleep test? I keep failing miserably; http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sleep/sheep/