OSA and depression...

[DreamDiver]

Between the headaches, the itchiness of the mask, the heat and the constant need to be aware of whether the mask is leaking, there are times in the middle of the night - I'm sure others are familiar with this - when I just want to rip the mask right off my face and just run out of the bedroom. In the last couple months, I've actually had three nights where I've had less than four hours of sleep not just because I couldn't face the mask. I could not sleep. I'd begun to wonder how much of what I'm experiencing is a deeper seated depression.

I can see that I'm having trouble just reading a book, following a conversation, being present to my wife and other people - even finishing chores or making efforts to do things I need to do other than washing and eating. I'm easily tired and out of breath. My AHI is around 3+ on average, and I get between seven and eight hours of sleep each night, so I don't know what's missing. Why the headaches? It's frustrating.

[edit - add] I'm only about 25 pounds overweight and on weightwatchers, and have already lost 20 pounds, so I'm not sure it's about weight.

So I was tapping away at cpaptalk.com when I saw an advertisement on TV for osadepression.com. Basically it's a link to this site:
https://secure1.acuriantrials.com/jsp/sleep_apnea.jsp

Is this worth the while?

Has anyone had experience with this kind of thing?

[bap40]

I have been treatd for depression and ADD for 20 years and have just started this therapy in Feb. Yes, things are better for me, but I still need the meds I take.

[DreamDiver]

Thanks bap40. It wouldn't surprise me if OSA partially contributes to existing depression and/or ADD. My circumstances may be a little different because up until a year or so before OSA diagnosis, I was pretty much a happy camper.

Perhaps not many of us on this forum have taken part in an experimental drug testing program. I have real reservations.

I was looking more for feedback on whether anyone else has participated in such a thing, but then it struck me: they probably make you sign a non-disclosure agreement, so even if I did ask, nobody's going to tell me on the forum anyway.

DOH!

[Wulfman]

It doesn't sound to me like your therapy is being all that successful (from your initial post). Leaks? Mouth-leaking/breathing? Pressure too low/high? Other medical conditions? Different mask (like a full face one) ? Got software and card reader or are you just reading the numbers from the LCD screen?

Even though your AHI is around 3.0, I'd feel rotten at those kind of numbers.

Yes, there's a link between OSA and lots of other medical issues.

Please tell us more.

Den

[OldLincoln]

It's not unusual to have multiple illness that contribute to each other. If you consider each - take inventory - as you are doing, you can manage them. If you had a bum foot that hurt to walk on, you would associate it as a local issue (foot) and treat it as such. However, depression is a condition that affects every part of your body and needs to be treated in order to manage the other issues.

Just by your descriptions and the fact that you must be concerned about it is a pretty strong indication that you need to talk with your physician. Not everybody needs to go to a phsyc and all that implies. Those I know consider it a chemical imbalance as does their doctor who simply gives them pill samples to see if it helps. Once the dose is set they write an Rx that brings them back to level and the cloud lifts. It's easy and not embarrassing without any drama.

I hope you consider this and just do it. A common symptom is to be unsure of your decisions so you really do have to trust and go.

[gasp]

Edit: I forgot to mention, medication can be very useful for those that need it. It can also life altering, and not in a good way, for those that don't. And lastly, even the best medications can have side effects that you wouldn't welcome. So....

If you go to a study for depression, it is probably based upon trying a new medication - if so you will come away with a medication. Medications can be beneficial and not - it doesn't sound like you need another not beneficial in your life at this time.

If you go to a psychiatrist, you'll probably walk away with a prescription.

If you go to a general MD, you'll probably walk away with a prescription or referral to a mental health professional who prescribes.

If you go to a non-prescribing mental health professional, you will probably be advised to schedule counseling sessions. The professional may be able to assess if you have depression and recommend you see a prescriber if you have depression that may require medication.

If you go to see a naturopathic doctor, they may be able to assess if your depression can be treated naturally, such as with St John's Wort, or if you need a stronger anit-depression medication. They may also be able to assess if you have another physical issue that is contributing to your current feelings. Look for a naturopathic doctor that is willing to spend a lot of time with you without rushing, allowing sufficient time to get a clear overall picture of your health.

Having said all this, I agree with Wulfman, you may want to take another look at your XPAP therapy.

Hope this helps.

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): Prescription

[SleepGuy]

Chronic sleep deprivation can be the cause of significant symptoms of depression. Altering your brain chemistry (dopamine and the like) with meds is not likely to improve apnea-related depression as much as treating the sleep apnea.

Stick with it and you'll get it figured out.

[Goofproof]

Edit: I forgot to mention, medication can be very useful for those that need it. It can also life altering, and not in a good way, for those that don't. And lastly, even the best medications can have side effects that you wouldn't welcome. So....

If you go to a study for depression, it is probably based upon trying a new medication - if so you will come away with a medication. Medications can be beneficial and not - it doesn't sound like you need another not beneficial in your life at this time.

If you go to a psychiatrist, you'll probably walk away with a prescription.

If you go to a general MD, you'll probably walk away with a prescription or referral to a mental health professional who prescribes.

If you go to a non-prescribing mental health professional, you will probably be advised to schedule counseling sessions. The professional may be able to assess if you have depression and recommend you see a prescriber if you have depression that may require medication.

If you go to see a naturopathic doctor, they may be able to assess if your depression can be treated naturally, such as with St John's Wort, or if you need a stronger anit-depression medication. They may also be able to assess if you have another physical issue that is contributing to your current feelings. Look for a naturopathic doctor that is willing to spend a lot of time with you without rushing, allowing sufficient time to get a clear overall picture of your health.

Having said all this, I agree with Wulfman, you may want to take another look at your XPAP therapy.

Hope this helps.

You hit it right on the head, the type of medical person you see, sets how you are going to be treated by them. Many people are treated wrong because of the medical training the person got doesn't fit what the patient needs. How do you know which is the correct one for you, that's the hard question. Sometimes, it's the person you see that makes the difference not the treatment.

We are like a big concrete wall, life comes at us from all sides, chipping away at us. We have to stop the chipping, where and when we can, keeping a good atitude and a positive outlook help, it also helps not to take things too seriously, the world revolves no matter what we do. Take time to enjoy the joke. If we think life gets better, it will. Jim

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): Prescription

[DreamDiver]

It doesn't sound to me like your therapy is being all that successful (from your initial post). Leaks? Mouth-leaking/breathing? Pressure too low/high? Other medical conditions? Different mask (like a full face one) ? Got software and card reader or are you just reading the numbers from the LCD screen?

Even though your AHI is around 3.0, I'd feel rotten at those kind of numbers.

Yes, there's a link between OSA and lots of other medical issues.

Please tell us more.

Den

I've posted two reports from my CPAP here. I've currently been using my full face mask because I can't seem to keep my mouth from opening. I am not fond of waking up with a mouth that feels like dry copy paper. I'm not seeing many large leaks on the full report.

My pressure was originally at 7. If I leave it there, AHI climbs to about 13. If I go towards 10, it starts climbing again. A pressure of 9 seems to yeild the lowest AHI.

I think the 90% leak is about the right range for the mask I'm using. It seems a lot higher than the 90% leak of the Swift II and consequently much louder.

A lot of things seem to be contributing to my inability to find a position to just deeply sleep, and the eroding quality of its persistence is lending a waxing bitter edge to my general demeanor.

[Babette]

Hang in there DD. Lots of us have been there and gotten through to the other side.

You're a valuable member here, and we'd hate to lose you. So no dying in your sleep, okay?

I'm having trouble getting to Zero AHI too. My reports showed that 12 was my zerio point, so I reset to 12 for two nights. I'm still waking up thinking this isn't "it". And, of course, my card won't read...

Different pillow? I advocate those foam contour pillows.

Melatonin? Meditation and Deep Breathing exercises?

Good luck!
Babs

[DreamDiver]

... We are like a big concrete wall, life comes at us from all sides, chipping away at us. We have to stop the chipping, where and when we can, keeping a good atitude and a positive outlook help, it also helps not to take things too seriously, the world revolves no matter what we do. Take time to enjoy the joke. If we think life gets better, it will. Jim

Goofproof, Gasp,

There are extenuating circumstances:
I react badly to a large variety of foods. I have a lot of bowel troubles. I have little tolerance for alcohol, let alone aspirin. High-powered general anesthetics bung me up for a week. I have sever reactions to certain types of pesticides. Wheat and nightshades (tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, eggplant, tobacco) are nearly poison to me. Pizza is death pie, much though it makes my mouth water. From the outside I look like the picture of health except for strikingly hollow eyes in the morning. I'm skeptical of doctors and specialists who aren't performing a specific function like polyp removal because their response to my concerns are that it's all in my head - except of course for the food reactions.

Before I started CPAP therapy, I was getting all sorts of health problems from persistent cough to rashes. (I still get rashes.) Polyps, cysts, thrush, beta strep... all within two years and repeatedly for the thrush and strep. At one point, I was getting hives for no known reason and had to take prednisone. After starting therapy, the health problems seem to have been staved off. The cough went away entirely. But they seem to be coming back in small ways again. It's the headaches and now the rashes again.

I know there are plenty of people out there who are much worse off, so I feel like just one more of our 'Nation of Whiners.'

Who doesn't pray for a miracle? No, I'm not giving up, but I could use a miracle any time now.

[DreamDiver]

Melatonin? Meditation and Deep Breathing exercises?

Babette,

Thanks.

Melatonin works for a couple nights, but then gives me glorious nightmares that are unmanageable. I've been practicing mindful meditation and have read a couple books on the subject, including Jon Kabat-Zinn's Full Catastrophe Living. I also read some Eckart Tolle and a few more obscure treatises on things like multi-dimensional consciousness - even Julian Jaynes. All excellent reading.

I also took some classes on meditation and saw someone in private practice to learn methods of meditation for pain remediation - also worth the time. Yoga Nidra has also been useful.

I sense I'm still slowly losing ground again, and I'm concerned about that.

I am hanging in there. I perhaps hope someone might be able to point at something from the linked CPAP reports.

[Wulfman]

I took a look at your reports.
A couple of other thoughts/questions.......
Are you using heated humidification? If so, I'd recommend turning it off.
Which full face mask? Your leak line seems to be pretty ragged.

Along the same thought that Babs had.......different pillow? I use a ChiroFlow water-based pillow. Keeps the mask from getting skewed......most of the time.

Den

[DreamDiver]

I took a look at your reports.
A couple of other thoughts/questions.......
Are you using heated humidification? If so, I'd recommend turning it off.
Which full face mask? Your leak line seems to be pretty ragged.

Along the same thought that Babs had.......different pillow? I use a ChiroFlow water-based pillow. Keeps the mask from getting skewed......most of the time.

Den

Den,

Thank you.

I'm using a full face mirage, standard medium. Assuming a perfect leak line would be a flat line, I'm curious what a normal/average leak line would look like. (I know Apria ain't gonna show and tell.)

I'll try turning off the heat, but I should continue with the humidifier, right?

I have a lot of pillows. I use a bucky pillow under my neck when lying on my back. Sometimes I'll scrunch it up under my ear if I end up on my side. I use a very large pillow under my legs. When I'm on my belly, I put a pillow under my belly to keep my back straight - a trick I learned from an acupuncturist.

I have two fantastic gel-fiber pillows that are hypo-allergenic and truly softer than goose down. They muffle sound better than any other pillow I've used. They do tend to get a bit warm in the summer.

I'm generally not fond of polyester pillows. They tend to ball up into lumpy matted masses because I scrunch them up so much.

However, I imagine a water pillow surrounded by poly would be excellent for combatting mask torque. Could you suggest a preferred [translate that 'inexpensive'] source?

[Babette]

Ooo.... Your pillow selection has me envious!

That $12 Big Lots foam pillow isn't looking so good right now...

LOL,
Babs