A-Flex, C-Flex or Goodknight ouch my head hurts

MrPaul · Post by **MrPaul** » Mon May 21, 2007 4:37 pm

Hi All,

Trying to decide which APAP machine to get is giving me a headache. Hopefully someone here can provide some help.

I've been using an HC220 machine every night for the last 4-5 years and it works OK. It seems low maintenance and quiet enough. The things that annoy me about it are its very bulky/heavy and I can't get any data out of it (specifically I want to make sure I'm not having any episodes).

So I'd like to update and getting an APAP seems like the way to go. This is where things get confusing..

M Series C-Flex vs A-Flex. Any reason to consider the C vs the A? Seems like the A is just a newer/better model?

How's the size difference between the M Series and the Goodknight? I see the numbers at cpap.com but its hard to tell without seeing them side by side and with their power adapters. The Goodknight seems to be quite a bit smaller then the M but again that's just an impression.

My pressure is currently set at 12, I read on the cpap Goodknight page that it can have problems with higher pressures. Is this a big concern?

Any comments on the noise difference between either machine and my HC220? I'd hope newer machines would be quieter but am worried that an APAP machine might be more annoying since the sound may not be constant?

What, if any, is the maintenance difference on these machines? Is it just a matter of hose/mask cleaning and filter changing?

Anything else that would push me one way or another? The numbers on cpap.com seem to push towards the M series machine, but I'm not quite sure why.

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Total Geek question, has anyone looked at the data that gets stored in the M Smart Card? If so is it encrypted/obfuscated in any way? I'm not a Windows user so if I can just get the data using the PC/SC API I'm more then happy with doing so.

tillymarigold · Post by **tillymarigold** » Mon May 21, 2007 5:01 pm

Having been researching this myself (see my post entitled "My sleep doc says the machine I wanted is ****"), I can answer some of those.

With the humidifier, the M series is about 8×8 and the 420E is about 11×5. Both are about 3 inches tall (with humidifier). So, as far as I'm concerned, much of a muchness; both noticeably smaller than a sheet of letter-sized paper. The 420E weighs very slightly less.

The sound is, indeed, not constant. There's a recording somewhere of the M-series Auto (someone linked to it in a comment to me on my post). My classic REMstar auto was also not constant but I adapted quickly to the sound.

As far as I know, both need the same maintenance, *except* when cleaning the 420E's hose, you need to be careful not to get water inside the sensor hose that's inside the air hose.

As I understand it, the M series auto w/ A-Flex only uses Encore v. 1.8, which is not available to the public. The one with C-Flex can use v. 1.6 which is no longer being sold but is still available if you know where to look. The Puritan-Bennett software is freely purchasable by the general public.

I'm leaning towards the 420E myself, I've heard bad things about the M series humidifiers and I like being able to get the software. But YMMV.

MrPaul · Post by **MrPaul** » Mon May 21, 2007 6:03 pm

tillymarigold wrote:With the humidifier, the M series is about 8×8 and the 420E is about 11×5. Both are about 3 inches tall (with humidifier). So, as far as I'm concerned, much of a muchness; both noticeably smaller than a sheet of letter-sized paper. The 420E weighs very slightly less.

Yeah I was more concerned about travel size (sans humidifier). Seems that with the humidifier they are all equally big.

tillymarigold wrote:I'm leaning towards the 420E myself, I've heard bad things about the M series humidifiers and I like being able to get the software. But YMMV.

Why did you rule out the REMstar Auto? is it purely a size issue? Seems like a lot of the issues in the M series aren't issues in the bigger brother.

As far as software goes I'd rather get access to the raw data (which is hopefully easier from a SmartCard then a serial port), but then I'm guessing that's just me. Also seems like its a lot easier to pop out a SC and bring it to a reader then to unplug the machine and lug it over to your computer.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon May 21, 2007 7:23 pm

MrPaul wrote:As far as software goes I'd rather get access to the raw data (which is hopefully easier from a SmartCard then a serial port), but then I'm guessing that's just me. Also seems like its a lot easier to pop out a SC and bring it to a reader then to unplug the machine and lug it over to your computer.

AIUI, the Respironics smart card requires a proprietary reader and proprietary software to read the proprietary reader. The software is no longer available to patients. I don't know what you mean by "raw data" if you don't mean "the charts that the software displays" and it seems you don't.

I don't feel that carrying something that weighs less than 2 pounds can be called "lugging," not to mention the fact that I have a laptop anyway (which weighs considerably more than the machine).

nodding off · Post by **nodding off** » Mon May 21, 2007 7:35 pm

I tried an M series and traded it in for another Spirit when I changed insurance companies. I also have a PB420E which has gone traveling around the world with me. I love the Spirit although it is big. I like my 420E and get a great night of sleep on it. I found the M series to be extremely noisy, and after 12 years of cpap I sleep just fine without expiratory relief. I haven't tried the S8, but my RT for my DME told me it was very quiet and a good machine. The machines all come with very good carrying cases, so travel is not really an issue. If you don't need expiratory relief the 420E and the Spirit are both very good machines in my opinion. The 420E is tiny. Both have available software.

RosemaryB · Post by **RosemaryB** » Mon May 21, 2007 7:37 pm

With the M-Series, there is a very large power block. Some people have commented that with this added to the total size, it makes it nearly comparable to the classic REMstar (tank) when you travel. I have the tank.

I have the card reader and Encore pro software. There's an older version of the software that works with the tank, version 1.61i. Perhaps others here would know about how to work with software with Linux, if that's what you use.

RosemaryB · Post by **RosemaryB** » Mon May 21, 2007 7:42 pm

[quote="nodding off"]I tried an M series and traded it in for another Spirit when I changed insurance companies. I also have a PB420E which has gone traveling around the world with me. I love the Spirit although it is big. I like my 420E and get a great night of sleep on it. I found the M series to be extremely noisy, and after 12 years of cpap I sleep just fine without expiratory relief. I haven't tried the S8, but my RT for my DME told me it was very quiet and a good machine. The machines all come with very good carrying cases, so travel is not really an issue. If you don't need expiratory relief the 420E and the Spirit are both very good machines in my opinion. The 420E is tiny. Both have available software.

MrPaul · Post by **MrPaul** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:14 pm

What I find interesting is that there seems to be a lot of negative feeling towards the M Series and yet it outsells the PB420E (at least on cpap.com) by quite a margin. Can anyone explain this?

nightingale · Post by **nightingale** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:31 pm

I am very happy with the GoodKnight -- now if I could just find a full face mask that does not leak or leave horrible imprints!!

RosemaryB · Post by **RosemaryB** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:32 pm

[quote="MrPaul"]What I find interesting is that there seems to be a lot of negative feeling towards the M Series and yet it outsells the PB420E (at least on cpap.com) by quite a margin. Can anyone explain this?

Snoredog · Post by **Snoredog** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:32 pm

it all depends on your current pressure requirement.

therapy wise the M series has the most going for it, now the newer models have A-Flex which gives it even more than it had before. With A-flex it offers relief on both inhale and exhale, where C-flex was only on exhale.

The m series displays some sleep data on the LCD, like pressure, 7 & 30 day AHI averages, leak data etc. With the optional software it displays even more information.

The 420e is also a great little machine, it doesn't offer any kind of relief on exhale, but it does have some parameters that can be tweeked to offer better therapy if your condition fits. It also does a better job at avoiding response to centrals. It has a smaller footprint than the M series combo, it is also quieter than the M series, doesn't have the annoying blue LED's like the M series. The 420e does have a backlit LCD display (doesn't give any sleep data via LCD), does have a real time clock. With Silverling software it gives some of the most detailed reports of any autopap.

If you have problems with aerophagia, you may want to stick with the A-Flex machine, it will help that condition out where the 420e doesn't offer any relief.

If I were buying again, I would get the F&P HC150 humidifier and just buy the machine stand-alone. You can use the HC150 with any machine, that M series humidifier is a problem child in my opinion.

Here you can see how they compare, but with the M series humidifier:

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue May 22, 2007 6:56 am

A-Flex only works in the Auto mode...