Care to brainstorm anyone?

jrgood27 · Post by **jrgood27** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:37 am

I'm failing miserably with CPAP but I still keep trying - last night I got back on the horse after giving up for a while and I was lying awake when it occurred to me that if I could sleep face down that might be the perfect solution.

My apnea is caused by my tongue and whatever else is in the back of my throat collapsing - so I thought - what if I was on a massage table, for example, where there is a face rest that allows you to breathe. Would gravity be working for me rather than against me?

I know this sounds nuts. But I'm thinking of all the crazy stuff we already do with CPAP and how many brilliant ideas people come up with to help people with apnea, so I thought I'd toss this idea out and see if any lightbulbs went off for anyone.

Could there be a pillow or a whole body mattress pad or a bed made that could allow you to sleep face down? Maybe I should just rent a massage table for a night and see. It would take some getting used to though. Do I sound desperate, lol?

Jenny

Wulfman · Post by **Wulfman** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:41 am

What position have you been sleeping in since you started PAP therapy?
Was this your "normal" sleep position for you before you started?

Den

DreamStalker · Post by **DreamStalker** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:43 am

If you are trying to look for a substitute for using CPAP, your horse may be on the wrong path.

Goofproof · Post by **Goofproof** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:46 am

It might help, but then you would need someone, to strap you in place, so you didn't change position during the night. You also would need a sleep test, every night to make sure it was working. Somehow I think using my XPAP every night, might be a more logical solution. Jim

jrgood28=7 · Post by **jrgood28=7** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:14 pm

In June it'll be one year since I got my APAP. I've tried 9 masks. Tried APAP, CPAP with EPR, CPAP no EPR. The most I can get is 5-6 hours with frequent awakenings and that's using benadryl and/or lunesta.

CPAP isn't seeming too logical for me anymore sadly. It's not a great solution for light sleepers. Not that I'm giving up. There are more masks to try and I could try a whole new machine if I could talk my insurance into it (currently have an S8 Vantage). I was evaluted for an oral appliance that I have little faith in and I'm not even sure if I'll get one made.

Just trying to think outside the box. But yeah, you'd have to know you were staying face down. But if you needed to be tested every night to be sure it's working - the same logic would apply for oral appliances.

Or for that matter, my CPAP may be causing arousals even though it's preventing hypopneas. I often wake up on inhalation - when the exhaust noise increases.

Jenny

WearyOne · Post by **WearyOne** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:16 pm

Hi, Jenny!

I don't really have an answer for you, other than I can relate, as I've wondered the same thing. I go to a chiropractor on a regular basis for back issues and lay on my stomch on one of those types of padded bench things. One time while laying there for part of the treatment, I started thinking about your question. Problem is, I usually get congested in about five minutes of laying in that position, so it wouldn't work for me anyway!

It is an interesting theory, though, for those whose main apnea cause is the tongue falling back and block the throat.

Pam

Edit: Forgot to mention that before finally giving in and getting a sleep study the beginning of this year, I tried (once only!) sleeping on my stomach, face down, with pillows stacked and propped in such a way as to leave an open hole in the middle to breathe! Didn't last long, as my back started killing me, as well as pressure on the sinus and congestion.

DreamStalker · Post by **DreamStalker** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:21 pm

Well, a mesage table will only place pressure on your sinus tissues in the cheek-bone area around your nose ... this will cause congestion under prolonged periods (such as sleeping) and you will be forced to breathe through your mouth (dry mouth is no fun). Then there will be the drool issue (at least til your mouth and throat dry out) ... not sure how that will be more pleasant than wearing a CPAP mask. You would be better off trying to figure out how to sleep standing up like a horse.

Best of luck anyway!

Wulfman · Post by **Wulfman** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:56 pm

jrgood28=7 wrote:In June it'll be one year since I got my APAP. I've tried 9 masks. Tried APAP, CPAP with EPR, CPAP no EPR. The most I can get is 5-6 hours with frequent awakenings and that's using benadryl and/or lunesta.

CPAP isn't seeming too logical for me anymore sadly. It's not a great solution for light sleepers. Not that I'm giving up. There are more masks to try and I could try a whole new machine if I could talk my insurance into it (currently have an S8 Vantage). I was evaluted for an oral appliance that I have little faith in and I'm not even sure if I'll get one made.

Just trying to think outside the box. But yeah, you'd have to know you were staying face down. But if you needed to be tested every night to be sure it's working - the same logic would apply for oral appliances.

Or for that matter, my CPAP may be causing arousals even though it's preventing hypopneas. I often wake up on inhalation - when the exhaust noise increases.

Jenny

How is your Vantage configured? (pressures, settling, etc.)
If it's set up in a wide pressure range, that could explain the arousals. It also may NOT be preventing the events. Most of the autos can't respond quickly enough to stop them.

Please tell us more.

Den

WearyOne · Post by **WearyOne** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:03 pm

Jenny, have you checked into things like PLM? Have you tried wearing foam earplugs and/or using a sound conditioner, or covering the machine to mask the machine noise (if you think the noise is waking you up)? Are you getting nose congestion or is the air too cold?

I just started treatment a few months ago and found that, becasue of frequent awkenings but pretty good data, I needed to look into a lot of things, some of which weren't even related to the apnea and machine. Anxiety and depression can also cause frequent awakenings, as well as some medications.

I know you've probably been through all these things, but just thought I'd mention some that I've recently checked into myself.

Pam

blarg · Post by **blarg** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:11 pm

jrgood28=7 wrote:I often wake up on inhalation - when the exhaust noise increases.

I agree with Den 100%. We need more info. If it's just the noise waking you up, then have you considered earplugs? I know you "shouldn't" have to, but with all that stuff all over your face in the first place, I doubt you'll notice the ear plugs much.

Have you tried putting your machine under your bed so there's less noise?

And of course, there's always the typical "Maybe it's not preventing events" explanation.

Wulfman · Post by **Wulfman** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:18 pm

blarg wrote:
jrgood28=7 wrote:I often wake up on inhalation - when the exhaust noise increases.
I agree with Den 100%. We need more info. If it's just the noise waking you up, then have you considered earplugs? I know you "shouldn't" have to, but with all that stuff all over your face in the first place, I doubt you'll notice the ear plugs much.

Have you tried putting your machine under your bed so there's less noise?

And of course, there's always the typical "Maybe it's not preventing events" explanation.

blarg,

How many "Autos" have we seen on the forum that are configured 4 - 20?
(and no "settling" time or maybe too much)

Some of the configurations that these patients get set up with are downright scary.

Den

Goofproof · Post by **Goofproof** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:59 pm

You could try and get a bunk on the international spacestation, zero G's should help with you tongue falling back. Jim

jrgood27 · Post by **jrgood27** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:24 pm

First off Pam, I have to say I tried exactly what you did last night and had to stop because of back pain and congestion. I did use a chinstrap (read:headband) to prevent drooling, lol.

Ok Den and Blarg, here's some more info - Currently I am using straight CPAP - after months of using it on Auto at first with a wide range and then a far more narrow one.

Then I thought that the change in pressure may be too disruptive to my sleep. So switched to straight CPAP - my sleep doc took a look at my smart card and said the auto never went above 7, so I picked 8.5 to start and now I'm down to 7 in the hopes that I find that less disruptive.

Tried EPR of 3 b/c I'm swallowing air - but thought maybe that change in pressure was too disruptive. So currently I'm on straight CPAP - pressure 7. No ramp. Use a fan for white noise (which I've used for years anyway b/c the slightest sound wakes me up). This morning had an AI: .4 and HI: 1.9.

My mouth drops open so I tried 2 full face masks and mouth taping = chipmunk cheeks. So now am using a headband that I bought for like 2 dollars that works much better than the chinstrap the DME sent, which someone recommended here. Still doesn't work perfectly though.

I take Benadryl for sleep/sometimes Lunesta. I've tried many different sleep aids and these work the best.

Earplugs seem to magnify the sound. The machine itself is quite quiet. It's the mask noise that is bothersome. It feels almost like I'm having a startle response when I inhale and feel the pressure increase. So far the Activa has been the quietest, but it's uncomfortable. Got familiar with all the great Activa tips here but still couldn't get it to work for me.

Got the hose rigged with scrunchies - one pinned to my mattress one on a hook screwed into the wall directly above my head.

Let's see what else: taking omerprazole for GERD - had an endoscopy to see if something is awry that's causing me to swallow air. Nope. Got a brand new king bed. Tried a sona pillow. I think that's it.

Thanks for your replies and if you have any ideas what a next step might be, I'd love to hear them. I'm thinking maybe getting a Soyala b/c they are the quietest supposedly. It took four months to get my DME to order an F&P 432 though and I'm sure they will put up a fight again.

Jenny

Wulfman · Post by **Wulfman** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:36 pm

jrgood27 wrote:This morning had an AI: .4 and HI: 1.9.

Well, THIS part looks good......

A pressure of 7 doesn't seem like much pressure to be causing problems. Have you tried 7.5?
Which mask did you use last night?

I've read that some of the users sleep on their stomachs.....if you'd find that comfortable.

Den

oceanpearl · Post by **oceanpearl** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:40 pm

[quote="jrgood27"]I'm failing miserably with CPAP but I still keep trying - last night I got back on the horse after giving up for a while and I was lying awake when it occurred to me that if I could sleep face down that might be the perfect solution.

My apnea is caused by my tongue and whatever else is in the back of my throat collapsing - so I thought - what if I was on a massage table, for example, where there is a face rest that allows you to breathe. Would gravity be working for me rather than against me?

I know this sounds nuts. But I'm thinking of all the crazy stuff we already do with CPAP and how many brilliant ideas people come up with to help people with apnea, so I thought I'd toss this idea out and see if any lightbulbs went off for anyone.

Could there be a pillow or a whole body mattress pad or a bed made that could allow you to sleep face down? Maybe I should just rent a massage table for a night and see. It would take some getting used to though. Do I sound desperate, lol?

Jenny

Care to brainstorm anyone?

Care to brainstorm anyone?

logic

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