Trying Melatonin

[lpady]

As well as Calcium (supposed to help in conjunction w/Melatonin for RLS) and Magnesium for the first time tonight. Wish me a good night's sleep! It's late and I just took it so I'm off to bed.....

Hoping everyone's night is RESTFUL!!!!!

Linda

[Snoredog]

You will probably need to take it every night for a week for it all to become effective.

[lpady]

Well, I was extremely tired by the time I went to bed. Have yet to download data to find out how last night went, but I was so tired I didn't even attempt to do my normal Sudoku routine. Slept the full 8 hours without taking which is terrific for me. Usually I wake up in the middle of the night at least to go potty.

I did notice a lot of leaks this morning. But then, I always have a lot of leaks in the later hours. Maybe this is due to my skin being so oily that the mask starts sliding around

OK - off to be a good girl and take my iron (along with my lexapro) and multivite so I can try to get this RLS under control. My legs have been aching all day for the last week. I'm sure I'm back in anemia (thank you RNY surgery ) so I NEED that iron!!!

Linda

[DerekR]

I have also read that Vit. B12 helps the body form melatonin naturally. You might ask your doctor about this as well.

[harikarishimari]

couple of things you should know about melatonin...

1. TIMING is VERY important, take it about an hour before you plan to sleep. It's NOT a vitamin, don't try to take lots of it at all times of the day or night. Rather it's a chemical signal that tells your brain to start it's nightly routine, including good solid stage 4 sleep, and a lot of other neat stuff.

2. it has a very SHORT lifetime, that is, it is cleared relatively quickly from your system. Don't take too much, 3 mg is the UPPER limit anybody should take. Better to take only 1.5 mg if that is enuf to help you sleep better. Too much will take longer to clear your system and will confuse your brain to thinking WHAT TIME IS IT???? The trick is to use it the same way your body produces it, which is that it spikes soon after light turns to dark, (sundown for some people). I know some people who eat it like candy, and they are the most WHACKED people i have met, ever. or close to it.

-HKS

[lpady]

couple of things you should know about melatonin...

1. TIMING is VERY important, ...including good solid stage 4 sleep, and a lot of other neat stuff.

2. it has a very SHORT lifetime, that is, it is cleared relatively quickly from your system. Don't take too much, 3 mg is the UPPER limit anybody should take. -HKS

Thanks for the dosing advice! I definitely need the stage 4 sleep!!! That's more what I'm looking for in the melatonin than anything else although I've read lots of good stuff about it - including helping with withdrawal symptoms from Klonopin which I take for my RLS. I'm hoping one day to be able to stop taking the Klonopin since it is "habit forming"

I'll remember not to take more I sure don't want to be "whacked"

Linda

[RosemaryB]

When I used to have bouts of insomnia, I heard about taking 5-HTP. This is the precursor to tryptophan, an amino acid that helps with the synthesis of neurotransmitters (ones like serotonin or norepinepherine, not sure of the details). It helped me stay asleep.

More recently I started taking melatonin, 1 mg and found it did the same thing, helped me stay asleep (I usually fall asleep right away). I was a little leary of taking melatonin b/c it's a hormone, not just a supplement like 5 HTP.

I wonder if anyone else has used 5 HTP and what they know about it and how it compares to melatonin.

Another tip for helping your body produce melatonin is to make your room absolutely dark. I did this by putting a piece of heavy black fabric over the shade in my bedroom. I did put some colorful scarves on top so it didn't look so dreary. I also put black duct tape over the LED lights and keep the door closed to the bedroom at night. I was amazed at the difference this absolute darkness has made.

[jules]

My understanding is that l-Tryptophan gets converted to 5HTP then to seratonin and then seratonin can be converted to melatonin.

[Goofy-guest]

My understanding is that l-Tryptophan gets converted to 5HTP then to seratonin and then seratonin can be converted to melatonin.

Absolutely right.

Chuck

BTW, recent studies suggest that women require no more than 100 MICROgrams of exogenous melatonin to produce the sleep "signal" and men require no more 150 MICROgrams. These same studies also suggest that taking the commonly available over the counter strength of 3 MILLIgrams (30 times the required dose for women) may have the effect over time of de-sensitizing the body's MT1 and MT2 (melatonin) receptors. So, I take 200 MICROgrams tabs right at the hour of sleep, and it works like a charm. I definitely avoid taking the larger 3 mg. strength. 200 MICROgram tablets are available on-line. I get mine from http://www.puritanvitamins.com and they are dirt cheap.

Hope this helps.

Chuck

[kavanaugh1950]

I use melatonin at times. It makes me very sleepy but I find I wake up early and can't go back to sleep. pat

[jules]

My understanding is that l-Tryptophan gets converted to 5HTP then to seratonin and then seratonin can be converted to melatonin.

Absolutely right.

Chuck

You mean I actually got something right?

My experience with melatonin (and I have tried usually 1 mg and 3 mg) but not as low of a dose at goofyut is not sleepiness at the time or even an hour later but eventually getting to sleep, but hangover fatigue and hard to be alert in the am. I don't need that. I have also tried lower doses and don't have the hangover but also don't get to sleep on them either.

I would also warn anyone who is taking a prescription antidepressant to check with their doctor about taking any of these (L-Tryptophan which I understand is back available now without an Rx in US, 5HTP, melatonin). I would also suggest checking with your doctor if you are on any other sedative meds too.

[Snoredog]

My understanding is that l-Tryptophan gets converted to 5HTP then to seratonin and then seratonin can be converted to melatonin.

Absolutely right.

Chuck

BTW, recent studies suggest that women require no more than 100 MICROgrams of exogenous melatonin to produce the sleep "signal" and men require no more 150 MICROgrams. These same studies also suggest that taking the commonly available over the counter strength of 3 MILLIgrams (30 times the required dose for women) may have the effect over time of de-sensitizing the body's MT1 and MT2 (melatonin) receptors. So, I take 200 MICROgrams tabs right at the hour of sleep, and it works like a charm. I definitely avoid taking the larger 3 mg. strength. 200 MICROgram tablets are available on-line. I get mine from http://www.puritanvitamins.com and they are dirt cheap.

Hope this helps.

Chuck

WHERE is the link to that recent study you mention?

I think everyone would like to read it for themselves instead of your interpretation of it.

there is a big difference in "as low" vs "no more" or is that your own interpretation of it?

Maybe that low dose is suggested for jet lag or depression, or if you are only trying to overcome insomnia, but she is trying to keep her legs from kicking her Mom out of bed during REM where everything else the medical community has offered her to date has completely failed. And she is not the only one here with that same condition.

These people have resorted to using bars of soap in their beds.

Study after study shows you can take much more than that single study "claimed". How many patients were in that study anyway? 30?

Here is a well respected link, this is what they have to say:
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/melatonin-000315.htm

Below is their suggested dosage, why do think they suggest more? Who are we supposed to believe here?

It seems to me it all depends on what you are trying to fix and UMM seems to agree (and you can read it for yourself from the link above):

Adult

* Insomnia: 3 mg one hour before bedtime is usually effective, although doses as low as 0.1 to 0.3 mg may improve sleep for some people. If 3 mg per night is not effective after 3 days, try 5 to 6 mg one hour before bedtime. An effective dose should produce restful sleep with no daytime irritability or fatigue.
* Jet lag: 0.5 to 5 mg of melatonin one hour prior to bedtime at final destination has been successful in several studies. Another approach that has been used clinically is 1 to 5 mg 1 hour before bedtime for 2 days prior to departure and for 2 to 3 days upon arrival at final destination.
* Sarcoidosis: 20 mg per day for 4 to 12 months. Take melatonin to treat this specific health condition only under medical supervision. Do not take melatonin supplements long-term without consulting your doctor.
* Depression: 0.125 mg twice in the late afternoon, each dose 4 hours apart (for example, 4 PM and 8 PM). People with depression tend to be particularly sensitive to the effects of melatonin -- meaning that a very low dose is generally enough to achieve the desired outcomes.

From the Mayo:
http://www.mayoclinic.org/news2003-rst/1937.html

ROCHESTER, Minn. -- A Mayo Clinic study shows that melatonin successfully alleviates many patients’ symptoms of REM-sleep behavior disorder (RBD), a violent sleep condition that manifests during rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, a stage of deep sleep in which most dreaming occurs.

"Melatonin can be considered as one possible option for RBD," says Brad Boeve, M.D., Mayo Clinic neurologist and sleep specialist, and the study’s principal investigator.

People who experience RBD appear to act out their dreams, in which screaming, yelling, hitting, kicking and jumping out of bed tend to occur. These behaviors can cause injury to these people or their bed partners.

"Normally in REM sleep, almost every muscle in your body is paralyzed and you don’t move," explains Dr. Boeve. "Therefore, when you have a dream, there’s no excessive activity and no potential for injury. In this disorder, for reasons we don’t fully understand yet, that normal paralysis is lost, and people will appear to act out their dreams. Sometimes, they’re pleasant dreams. Usually, they’re nightmarish, violent dreams with the person being chased or attacked by something or someone. So, they try to defend themselves or fight against it, leading to punching and kicking. They can injure themselves by jumping out of bed, striking the bedposts or diving out of bed. As for their bed partners — they often get injured."

Dr. Boeve describes the potential injuries from RBD as "pretty violent" and points out the issues faced by bed partners of RBD patients.

"Many of them — if they’ve been hit enough times or have been bruised or injured — do move out of the bed," says Dr. Boeve. "But, like most couples, they want to sleep together."

Due to undesirable side effects of the current standard treatment for RBD, clonazepam, Dr. Boeve and colleagues sought to test other drugs to treat this condition. A small European study showing some success in treating RBD patients with melatonin and the personal story of a Mayo Clinic patient who tried melatonin on his own for RBD and experienced success, convinced the Mayo Clinic researchers that supplementing was worth studying...

Only five, or 36 percent, of the patients who took melatonin for RBD experienced infrequent, minor side effects such as headaches or sleepiness in the morning, all of which stopped when the amount of medication prescribed was reduced.

The reason melatonin is effective for some RBD patients remains a mystery to the researchers.

See that last sentence? Even the sharpest minds in the country have no idea how it works, other than it does.

I can go on for days posting reference links, I have literally hundreds of them. If you are going to take it to keep your legs from kicking, you better take enough of it to do the job or don't even bother with the exercise. You should be able to figure out if its right or not within 10 days or so.

Then all one has to do is compare the side effects of melatonin to any other prescribed medication out there. That is all you have to do.

Show me a single incident where a patient actually died from taking melatonin? or even easier show me one that got sick from it. There has only been 3 reports of complaints to the FDA in the past 50 years. That is why they don't regulate it.

Any medical entity that has ever studied melatonin always warns that you "should never take it without doctor supervision" or even worse it is not controlled by the FDA or or "it is not manufactured under FDA approved facilities to USP grade. Again, more BS, fact is if it was so dangerous for you the FDA would taken it off the market years ago like they did recently with quinine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinine

[jules]

Taking 5HTP or L-Tryptophan which are converted to serotonin with a SSRI type antidepressant could lead to an condition called serotonin syndrome. I don't know (and am sure not a medical authority) if taking melatonin might enter into this rare but threatening condition since melatonin comes from serotonin not vice versa.

Hence I put a warning in my post above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_syndrome

They list other meds that can lead to this condition too.

[Nodoze]

I've been using melatonin for years now, and at the beginning I found that there was considerable differences between brands of melatonin, as well as big differences in how the dosage affected me. Firstly, the brand made a huge difference. I tried melatonin from a famous health food chain, and it was probably the worst. I tried various Wal-mart brands, and they were not much better. Finally I got some from Vitamin World, and their 250 microgram melatonin was by far the most effective, and I've been using it ever since. BTW I don't work for any of these guys!
My understanding is that because Melatonin is considered to be a food supplement, there are no controls on the purity of the product. Some manufacturers control the quality and apparently others aren't as concerned.
As far as dosage is concerned, I have found that the smaller the dose, the better, as long as it still does the job. 250 mcg of good quality melatonin appears to be ample for most of my under 65 year old friends. My understanding is that the pineal gland slows it's production of melatonin as one ages, and therefore the dosage made need adjustment from time to time, but usually not until age 65 or so for most people. The book entitled "The Melatonin Miracle"outlines this process very well.

I hope that this may help a bit. Good luck.