dry mouth on the one hand, rain out on the other.

[zonker]

i've been messing with my settings in an effort to find that delicate sweet spot between drowning and drying out, with no success. so i come to you all to see if you can give me some guidance.

this started to happen when i let my bedroom temperature reach 64. i find this a help in my sleeping. i like snuggling under the covers with the cool air around me. sleeping in a warm room just doesn't appeal.

so with the approach of winter (this started around the end of november), i have this problem. i've "tried everything" (i find that phrase irksome. if i've tried everything, i must have the anser, right?) i have tried several approaches but none will sustain through the night.

let me give you last night-temperature=80 humidity=3. lights out at 11pm. woke at 2:30 with rain out. switched out my mask (i have two p10s so when one collects water, i can switch out.) and short hose. the heated hose didn't seem to be much effected so left that. changed temp to 82 and left humidity at 3. i then woke up repeatedly to dry mouth.

here's the "accessories" i use when masking up for sleep. i use a firm foam cervical collar 4". i use scuncis for my mouth. scunci method here-viewtopic.php?p=1089718&f=1&t=112758&p= ... s#p1086296
i use a small piece of plastic baggy across my front teeth. i use two lens cleaning cloths. i use two thin hairbands to reinforce the scuncis.

at my disposal is two heated hoses one non heated hose cover for non heated hose. cover for the short hose. a barrel cozy for the p10 mask itself. i've tried various and sundry combinations without success.

one other variable. one mask has the stock strap, the other has an adjustable strap.

i can't think of what i might be missing here that's relevant. please ask for any details you think i might have left out.

anyone got a suggestion?

[ozij]

let me give you last night-temperature=80 humidity=3. lights out at 11pm. woke at 2:30 with rain out. switched out my mask (i have two p10s so when one collects water, i can switch out.) and short hose. the heated hose didn't seem to be much effected so left that. changed temp to 82 and left humidity at 3. i then woke up repeatedly to dry mouth.

Dry mouth only when the temp was 82?
Are you sure you're not mouth leaking despite all the paraphernalia? (What does OSCAR say?)
Have you tried humidity at 2?
Hose under the blankets?

Did you try the P10 barrel cozy (hose cozy?) consistently while making changes in the humidity or your hose temp?

[lazarus]

Glad Ozij is on the case.

I never figured out how to make heated hoses work for me. Too many variables for my brain, and auto never did the trick. I eventually put the heated hoses away and went back to using a regular slim hose underneath a generic fabric full-size hose cover with a zipper. If I get rainout, I turn the blower humidifier setting down one. If I feel dry, I turn it up one. I know others rave about their heated hoses. I'm happy for them. I gave up. Heated hoses don't completely heat the mask, so I find them to be a flawed solution for rainout in my case. Hey, just me.

I run a room humidifier in winter and a room dehumidifier in summer to keep room relative humidity relatively steady, around 42. Bedroom stays about 69 degrees F. Hose stays outside the covers. The three blankets, two pairs of socks, and Costco-bought Tempur-pedic topper keep me warm enough. The humidity level on my AutoSet 10 has been left set to 6 for the last year or so. Moist enough air for me. No rainout. Uses about half a tank per night. I use nasal pillows. No tape. No mouth leak.

Since I use a room humidifier in winter in the NE, I have to aim a constant-running fan at the bedroom window inside the blinds and put towels on the windowsill to prevent accumulation of moisture condensation that would otherwise damage the wood.

May you find answers that work for you, my friend.

Sleep well.

[zonker]

Dry mouth only when the temp was 82?
Are you sure you're not mouth leaking despite all the paraphernalia? (What does OSCAR say?)
Have you tried humidity at 2?
Hose under the blankets?

Did you try the P10 barrel cozy (hose cozy?) consistently while making changes in the humidity or your hose temp?

not dry mouth at 80, but i've had it when temp higher.

here's what oscar has to say-


yes, humidity at 2. dry mouth, iirc.

hose under blankets, but can't remember the outcome or what settings i used. i know that it didn't improve my situation.

i've pretty much done nothing consistently, which i understand is a big part of the problem. i do recall that whatever settings i used with the barrel cozy caused rain out. that's particularly annoying as i really like that cozy as it helps the mask fit more snug against the nostrils.

every night, when i try for humidity, it seems i wake up around 3 am with rainout. at that time, i'm thinking even less cognitively than usual. so i just dial things waaayyy down to avoid it and then get dry mouth.

i did notice on that chart that i show some leaks there after mask switch out. but i'm uncertain which mask. and looking back over the data, it seems that is a trend over at least the last few nights. i didn't go back further as i was in a hurry to get the data posted.

has any of this helped?

oh and thanks for responding, truly appreciate it.

[ozij]

The OSCAR you posted does seem to say that the dry mouth and leak are related -and why would a barrel cozy cause dry mouth

As a matter of fact, I only experience dry mouth when I have a mouth leak - and it doesn't have to be a big one.
Is it possible that some of your "anti-leak" system gets loose from the rainout or the tossing?
Can you try simple taping for a night or two? A new tape may easier to put on if you wake up with a loose one than all those things you're using.

Here's what I'd do to find out if it's the mask
Option 1:
Try to use the "rainout mask" when I start the night, and do that for at least 2 nights running.
Cover that mask's short hose - not sure if you call that a barrel cozy or if a barrel cozy is something else....
Use a higher hose temp, and start out at humidity 3.

After 2 nights of trying, switch the first and second masks - using the same settings I had before for each part of the night.

And here's what I'd do to find out if its the hose / humidifier system settings
Were you getting rainout when the heated hose / humidifier system was on Auto?

I find that when the temperature is too high, I get more congestion - any chance something similar may be causing you to try to mouth breathe?
Option 2

Systematic testing of that would be to start the night at humidity 1, hose temp at whatever feels best for you, and see how that affects your rainout and your breathing.
And check each OSCAR session for leaks.

Rainout basically means "to much humidity for the present mask temp" - so you either have to protect the mask and its hose from the cooler environment, or drop the humidifier temp - let start the night out with "potentially too dry" and see what happens.

[zonker]

Glad Ozij is on the case.

me too. i was so glad, i forgot to respond to you.

I never figured out how to make heated hoses work for me.

this is part of what's so frustrating about this. i THOUGHT i'd gotten a handle on this whole heated hose/humidity thing. but alas! it's not to be.

i think ozij might be on to something with the leaks though. let's see how it turns out.

[zonker]

The OSCAR you posted does seem to say that the dry mouth and leak are related -and why would a barrel cozy cause dry mouth

here's what that cozy looks like-
https://www.padacheek.com/airfit-p10

As a matter of fact, I only experience dry mouth when I have a mouth leak - and it doesn't have to be a big one.
Is it possible that some of your "anti-leak" system gets loose from the rainout or the tossing?
Can you try simple taping for a night or two? A new tape may easier to put on if you wake up with a loose one than all those things you're using.

i'm a full bearded fellow so i don't think i could make that go.

Here's what I'd do to find out if it's the mask
Option 1:
Try to use the "rainout mask" when I start the night, and do that for at least 2 nights running.

oh! i like that. no worse than what is happening right now and we collect data into the bargain.

And here's what I'd do to find out if its the hose / humidifier system settings
Were you getting rainout when the heated hose / humidifier system was on Auto?

this is what i did last night. put climate control on auto and temp to 82. rain out. this was with the mask with the adjustable strap. switched to the other mask. humidity to 4 and temp to 82. dry mouth.

[/quote]

i'll leave it right here for now. i'll come back this evening and set it up per your instructions.

thanks so very much for your help so far!

[ozij]

You're very welcome, Zonker. And have a happy new year!
Thanks for posting the link to the cozy.
Do all your experimentation with the short hose cover in use.

this is what i did last night. put climate control on auto and temp to 82. rain out. this was with the mask with the adjustable strap. switched to the other mask. humidity to 4 and temp to 82. dry mouth.

Can you have climate control on auto, and yet control the temperature? That doesn't sound right to me.
Humidity of 4 is the default for automatic mode.
Are you sure you wrote what you meant to write?

[zonker]

You're very welcome, Zonker. And have a happy new year!
Thanks for posting the link to the cozy.
Do all your experimentation with the short hose cover in use.

this is what i did last night. put climate control on auto and temp to 82. rain out. this was with the mask with the adjustable strap. switched to the other mask. humidity to 4 and temp to 82. dry mouth.

Can you have climate control on auto, and yet control the temperature? That doesn't sound right to me.
Humidity of 4 is the default for automatic mode.
Are you sure you wrote what you meant to write?

dammit, i answered this, then apparently forgot to submit it. take two.

yup, temp can be set-




have the cover on the short hose. will set up the rest right now.

eta: set temp at 83 humidity at 3

[ozij]

yup, temp can be set-

Got it.
According to ResMed,

Climate Control
This is the name of ResMed's humidification technology. Climate Control is a comfortable humidification system that delivers rainout protection without compromising on humidity delivery. By using one of our ClimateLine™ heated tubes with your Climate Control system, you can also keep the air in the tube warm throughout the night. Humidity and temperature are maintained, even as ambient conditions change.

" Humidity and temperature are maintained, even as ambient conditions change" means that no matter what the hose temp, the same humidity is maintained - warmer air carries more water, and need more water to maintain the same relative humidity. Warmer air with more total water meets cold P10 tube: more water in P10 tube and mask = rainout

Conclusion:
Leave the Climate Control on Auto. Start systematically dropping the hose temp.
That will give you less total water in the air, less of a contrast with the P10 tube, and less chance of rainout.
And check for leaks in every session in which your mouth is dry.

[zonker]

okay, report from last night-


hmmm....could this be a pattern?

1st part of the night, rain out. that was with the adjustable strap and hose cover temp 83 humidity 3

2nd part of the night switched heated hose as the first part of the night got it went. i put in my spare heated hose. stock head strap. by the way, i didn't use house cover when i switched out. should i put the hose cover on for the second part of the night?

According to ResMed...

oh okay. so i can start at whatever bloody temp i like, but automatic climate control will change it as the conditions change. got it.

Conclusion:
Leave the Climate Control on Auto. Start systematically dropping the hose temp.
That will give you less total water in the air, less of a contrast with the P10 tube, and less chance of rainout.
And check for leaks in every session in which your mouth is dry.

yes m'am. will start at 82 tonight.

oh! and continue with covered short hose and humidity at 3?

i feel i've left something out, but it just won't come to me.

[ozij]

I looked at your screenshots from the CPAP screen once again. Nowhere does it say you set the humidity at 3. On "Climate Control Auto" you're getting ResMed's default humidity setting of 4.
On the other hand, the details screen in the last OSCAR report says your climate control is on Manual, not Auto.
So - what gives?

According to ResMed...

oh okay. so i can start at whatever bloody temp i like, but automatic climate control will change it as the conditions change. got it.

If you mean "whatever bloody hose temp" the answer is no.

https://www.resmed.com/en-us/sleep-apne ... inout/Just like that classic infomercial slogan, Climate Control has a set and forget function. All you have to do is tune it to the temperature of your preference – anywhere between 60 and 86°F – and you’re good to go. Even if the temperature and humidity in the room changes, your tube temp stays the same.

The way I understand it, in manual mode, you tell ResMed "that's the temp I want, that's the relative amount of water" and ResMed sets the humidifier's heat based on what you asked for. "Manual" means neither temperature nor humidity is on ResMed's default. Hose temp and relative humidity are the two that define your comfort. Climate Control works to keep them constant.

Climate Control will do what it has to do to keep the temperature and humidity at the levels you requested. It will vary the humidifier temp depending on the environment (humid or dry), giving you the feeling of humidity you want, and it will give you hose temp you want, neither more nor less. You don't control the humidifier temp. ResMed does.
Why you're getting rainout:
When you hold your glasses close to your mouth and blow on them, they get foggy because the warm humid air from inside your body meets a cold surface, and can no longer hold that amount of humidity so you get condensation. Same with your car's inside windows, they fog up because they're colder that the air in the car.
And same with your P10. Warm moist air as set in your CPAP is coming from the heated tube and is meeting the cold surfaces of the P10, it cools down, can no longer hold the amount of water it carried when it was warm, and condenses causing rainout.
To avoid that you have to do the following:

• Under all conditions, protect the P10 from the cold air in your room.
• Make sure the air coming in from the heated does not carry so much water that you get rainout.

Think the heated hose as your suitcase, the P10 as you carry on. The warmer the hose, the bigger the suitcase, and If you have half full suitcase, you simply can't dump all it's content into a carry on bag, and keep that one half full.
Heated hose - big suitcase P10 - carry on luggage.
It's a rule of physics that warmer air is capable of carrying more water than colder air.
Which is why you have to either drop the temperature, or drop the humidity (probably both, in your cold room).

You can have a humidity of 3 if you drop the air temp to where the P10's temperature can handle that amount of water. Remember, you can set it as low as 60.

1st part of the night, rain out. that was with the adjustable strap and hose cover temp 83 humidity 3

You do mean the cover for your P10 short hose, I hope.
Get another one, put it on your alternative mask so you never sleep without one, as long as your room is cold.

And yes, there does seem to be a leak pattern in your "second part of the night dry mouth"...

[zonker]

I looked at your screenshots from the CPAP screen once again. Nowhere does it say you set the humidity at 3. On "Climate Control Auto" you're getting ResMed's default humidity setting of 4.
On the other hand, the details screen in the last OSCAR report says your climate control is on Manual, not Auto.
So - what gives?

i'll answer that, but first....hee-hee-HEE!! no rain out last night! plenty of condensation but none came out of the hose and up my nose. i woke at the usual time. and i felt the usual "markers" for rain out. my breathing was thick and hard to do. yet my forehead wasn't hot as it usually is when rain out is coming. but checked anyway to find what i reported. so i gave it a chance and went back to sleep without making any changes. i didn't sleep well because my brain kept anticipating that rain out. but it never came!! so, so happy.

now, as to my dumb fingers typing what you are referring to in my quote of you, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
what is the keyboard equivalent of "tongue tied"? remember, when i was getting the rain out, i would stop that procedure and then go with something i felt wouldn't cause rain out? that's where that came from. dunno why it popped into my brain or why i typed it.

and thanks for taking the time to type out that explanation. but i find myself like elton john in his song "rocket man"; "all the science, i don't understand."



no leaks, of course, because i didn't change out to my "leaky" p10.

over all i'm much pleased by this. tonight auto climate control with temp of 81 to see if that condensation can stay out of the hose.

we shall see.

[zonker]

UPDATE-

nothing has changed in my long term goal of sleeping dry but not too dry.

wanted to post this, though. night before last, i went to bed with auto climate set to a temp of 81 and hose cover on. woke up at 3 with rain out in mask only. neither the heated hose nor the short hose showed condensation.

decided to try last night with barrel cozy and climate control with temp at 79. woke at 4(i think) with rain out from heated hose to mask. switched out everything. left settings the same. got out of bed at my usual time (8) with no rain out and slight dry mouth.

i'm stuck as to what my next move should be.

any help would be appreciated.

[lynninnj]

UPDATE-

nothing has changed in my long term goal of sleeping dry but not too dry.

wanted to post this, though. night before last, i went to bed with auto climate set to a temp of 81 and hose cover on. woke up at 3 with rain out in mask only. neither the heated hose nor the short hose showed condensation.

decided to try last night with barrel cozy and climate control with temp at 79. woke at 4(i think) with rain out from heated hose to mask. switched out everything. left settings the same. got out of bed at my usual time (8) with no rain out and slight dry mouth.

i'm stuck as to what my next move should be.

any help would be appreciated.

Here’s my anecdote and hope it helps.

Menopause makes me want to keep ambient temp in apt at 58 degrees. I wear a tank top and don’t cover my N30 hose at all. I’ve never had rain.

I manually set mine at 82 degrees with humidity 5. This keeps my nose moist and unless im starting to get a cold (stuffy noses=dry mouth) mouth is comfy.

My only complaint is I wake up around 3-4 and rip the covers off till i get cold again.

hth