REM Sleep Detection Using OSCAR?

[ups4]

Is it possible to determine the occurrence and length of time we spend in REM sleep cycle using OSCAR graphs?
If so, what graph would I look at?

[Pugsy]

Not reliably that I have ever found.
Some people have said the can tell by evaluating the flow rate but I have never been able to spot enough difference and without a known reference point to compare to there's no known for sure data point to reference.
The flow rate graph was never designed for sleep evaluation...it's for breathing evaluation and not everyone will breathe remarkably different during REM.

[ups4]

Thanks, Pugsy.
That's pretty much what I thought, but was just wondering aloud.

[Miss Emerita]

I see periods of increased respiration rates whose timing would fit with REM sleep. Also, each of those periods ends with a brief arousal, which also fits, I think. But I’m sure everyone is different.

[Pugsy]

I see periods of increased respiration rates whose timing would fit with REM sleep. Also, each of those periods ends with a brief arousal, which also fits, I think. But I’m sure everyone is different.

That would indeed fit.

It's a lot of work to do and since there's nothing to be gained except scratching the curiosity itch (which I suppose is really important to some people and that's fine too) and with my other issues and the other arousals from the other issues it's just a futile endeavor anyway IMHO. You know me....I am a lazy sot and not going to expend anymore time and energy than I just have to on anything that I have no control over anyway.
Maybe someone could combine putting the flow rate and respiration graphs under the microscope along with maybe the data from one of the gadgets that is supposed to be able to distinguish sleep cycles and come up with a reasonably accurate evaluation but then what do we do with that data point if we get it? I don't have any control over REM....whether I get it or not or how much or when..
It's not an itch that I have any burning desire to scratch. So really haven't spent any time or energy messing with. Now if others have and are happy with whatever they have come up with then that's fine and dandy too.

The data from the machine itself wasn't ever really designed to distinguish sleep stages though. Now it wouldn't surprise me to find that R & D in the manufacturers are actually trying to figure out some way to add the sleep stages data point. Wouldn't that be nice if the machine could actually distinguish accurately awake vs asleep and tell us which was what and omit SWJ from the evaluation process??? The changes I have seen in just my 10 years on cpap are pretty amazing...makes me wonder what the machines will be able to tell us 10 years from now.
Think about what they have done with computers....home studies are reasonably accurate...what would happen if they added whatever sensor and computer program the home studies utilize into the machine's internal software??? Wouldn't that be sweet?

A girl can dream.

[jimbud]

Pugsy wrote:

.what would happen if they added whatever sensor and computer program the home studies utilize into the machine's internal software??? Wouldn't that be sweet?


jimbud writes:

That would be sweet.
I would definitely retire my relatively new machine and buy a new improved one.

Hear that Resmed?
Me and (I bet) a whole lot more.

JPB

[Dog Slobber]

I too see increases in respiration rates and often an increase in Flow Limitation that co-incide with REM sleep.

Some observations:

• The pattern is every 90 minutes (give or take)
• There is often a correlation between REM and increased flow limitations
• As I've become more accustomed to CPAP and optimized my therapy the increase in Respiration Rate and volatility has become less apparent but still there.
• Some nights it is more visible than others

I've included some OSCAR graphs demonstrating my Respiration rate pattern. The top three are from the past week and I've high-lighted the increased Respiration Rate. The bottom most is from about a year ago, where the the Respiration rate was very pronounced and I haven't included any high-lighting.

I believe I'm one of the few who does have such a noticeable change in Respiration Rate, as when others post graphs and if there Resp. Rate. chart is there, rarely do I see a REM like pattern.

As Pugsy states, other than a curiosity, I've found very little useful information from seeing my REM on my charts.

REM_pattern.png

[Pugsy]

You know my OSA is documented worse in REM...like 5 times worse in REM than in non REM.
About the only time I see anything change enough that might be REM is when I see the pressures increase on a rather predictable cycle.
First pressure increase about 90 minutes after sleep onset and at about the time we would expect to see the first REM cycle pop up and then as the night goes on the periods of increases come on a little quicker and last a little longer with the greatest times at the higher pressures being in those wee hours of the morning when we would expect to have more REM.

Back when I first started therapy...we didn't have flow rate to look at and we didn't have respiration rate to look at. We didn't even have central vs obstructive separation. We were doing good to have events and pressure to look at.

At this point though there simply isn't enough difference in either for me to decide REM or not. If there is a difference it is so subtle I just can't see it but I will be honest...I don't look very hard.
Someone else might have a more marked difference that is easier to spot because lets face it...we don't all sleep the same or breathe the same.

I have gone through the flow rate breath by breath on occasion just to see if I can spot arousal breathing or not....but I have never been able to spot the subtle differences that might point to REM. If I have any they are just too tiny for me to see and the same goes with respiration rate. I might see an increase briefly but I can't for sure know why. I always chalked it up to a good dream for lack of a better culprit. And since we can dream in any stage...dreaming itself doesn't necessarily prove REM.

[CapnLoki]

I've posted about this several times before - my REM sleep shows clear in my respiration rate
viewtopic/t94782/Reading-Sleep-State-fr ... -Rate.html
What I've realized is that this only works for some people - your NREM respiration has to be fairly moderate and steady. In my case my waking resp rate is very low so its easy to see my waking, NREM and REM periods. These patterns are repeated almost every night.

[Jay Aitchsee]

I believe I'm one of the few who does have such a noticeable change in Respiration Rate, as when others post graphs and if there Resp. Rate. chart is there, rarely do I see a REM like pattern.

Not so rare:
posting.php?mode=quote&f=1&p=1299718

Have a look at this: viewtopic/t158359/Tracking-sleep-stages.html#p1218669 A comparison to SleepyHead and a ResMed S+ sleep tracker, reproduced below.

Generally, one might expect fluctuations in Respirartory Rate during REM. In the comparison graphics below, one can see that REM periods identified by the S+ Tracker roughly correspond to periods of increased fluctuations in Respiratory Rate (Which could also represent awake periods).



The example below shows a very strong correlation between what the S+ tracker thinks is REM and more erratic Respiration Rate, where S+ sleep stages are represented by: Red=Wake, Gold=REM, Blue=Deep, and Green=Light

splus[1].JPG

As you state, the only way to know for sure what sleep stage one is in is through lab analysis, although many OTC trackers claim to be able to accurately report them.

[A KLERK]

My experience is that the Minute Ventilation graph shows deep sleep rather well: quiet breathing. Also a period of dreaming/REM sleep after that: wild breathing.

I like the correlation...

2019-08-12_21h13_45.png (396.36 KiB) Viewed 3942 times

it is an iPhone program

2019-08-12_21h13_20.png (562.87 KiB) Viewed 3942 times

Not always my nights look so good, but sometimes I even see four periods of deep sleep. I think it is an important parameter, with strongly underestimated importance.