Too many Clear Airway apneas

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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mehran
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Too many Clear Airway apneas

Post by mehran » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:45 pm

Hello
I have diagnosed with severe sleep apnea (AHI 29) about a month ago. I started using my APAP machine and it's just been a week that I've been collecting my sleep information.

Here is the results from last 7 days :
  • Average AHI : 5.21
  • Obstructive Index : 0.20
  • Hypopnea Index : 0.86
  • Clear Airway Index : 4.11
I've had 29 CA events last night and the longest one is 21 seconds!! here is an image :
CA.jpg
CA.jpg (68.4 KiB) Viewed 2060 times
More Images from other nights : (All of my CAs have the same pattern)
CA2.png
CA2.png (14.38 KiB) Viewed 2060 times
CA4.jpg
CA4.jpg (206.85 KiB) Viewed 2060 times

What are all these CA apneas? Can anybody help me fix the problem?

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Pugsy
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Re: Too many Clear Airway apneas

Post by Pugsy » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:50 pm

Welcome to the forum.

Can you please read the sticky and redo your screen shot to the format we like to see?
Also need to see your pressure settings.

We can't fix CAs/Centrals with your machine except to maybe reduce them by turning EPR off (or reducing EPR) and that only works if EPR is the cause of the centrals.
I can't tell by these snippets if you are using EPR or not.

How is your sleep quality? Waking often during the night?

Respironics calls apneas where there is no air moving but the airway is open ...clear airway apneas.
ResMed calls apneas where there is no air moving but the airway is open...central apneas.
SleepyHead was originally designed for Respironics machine and the term Clear Airway gets used even when reporting from a ResMed machine. If you were using ResScan software these would be called central apneas.

The airway is open and not obstructed but there is just no effort to breath.
Sometimes just adding cpap therapy itself will cause some unstable breathing where the brain forgets to send the signal to breath.
Often when this happens to people they find that with a bit of time the body gets used to cpap therapy and the centrals will reduce on their own as the brain gets back to regularly sending the "breathe" signal.
Unless there is a huge number of centrals happening most doctors will go with a wait and see attitude when a person has centrals caused by cpap therapy itself. I know that an average of 4 per hour seems like a high number to you but most doctors won't get excited about centrals unless the number is much higher than what you are seeing and even then they usually do the "wait and see" thing first.

If you aren't sleeping soundly then some of the centrals may be related to awake breathing irregularities getting flagged by mistake.
Happens often to people new to cpap therapy. Lots of little wake ups just because the brain is hypersensitive to all this stuff on our face.
So again the "give it time" thing comes into play.

Of course if they bug you too much...bring it to the attention of your doctor.

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mehran
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Re: Too many Clear Airway apneas

Post by mehran » Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:44 am

Thank you Pugsy
Pugsy wrote: We can't fix CAs/Centrals with your machine except to maybe reduce them by turning EPR off (or reducing EPR) and that only works if EPR is the cause of the centrals.
My EPR is off
Pugsy wrote: How is your sleep quality? Waking often during the night?
I still feel I'm not having enough sleep and I don't feel awesome when I wake up. I also have too many vivid dreams each night that I think is related to my breathing problem. In fact, I can even guesstimate my AHI by amount of vivid dreams I've had (When I see too much vivid dreams my AHI will raise). I don't know. Maybe my brain stays too much focused on the dreaming subject that forgets to send the breathing signals? :|

here is an image from Friday : (the gap between 6:30 - 7:30 : I woke up, had breakfast, didn't feel great, I raised the pressure to 9 with EPR 3 and got back to bed)
results.jpg
results.jpg (213.4 KiB) Viewed 2018 times
Last night changed the pressure to fixed 9 with EPR 2 and my AHI raised to 7.33. and again mainly CAs.

Thanks for your time

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palerider
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Re: Too many Clear Airway apneas

Post by palerider » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:39 am

mehran wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:45 pm
What are all these CA apneas? Can anybody help me fix the problem?
Looks like three post arousal centrals and one real one... in that order.

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mehran
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Re: Too many Clear Airway apneas

Post by mehran » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:25 am

palerider wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:39 am
Looks like three post arousal centrals and one real one... in that order.
Thanks
How do you recognize that? and what's your suggestion to reduce post arousal centrals?

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Pugsy
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Re: Too many Clear Airway apneas

Post by Pugsy » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:38 am

Go here and watch all the videos as it will explain how to better determine asleep vs post arousal flagged event.
http://freecpapadvice.com/sleepyhead-free-software

It's not so much that the dreams are causing the centrals as the centrals are a symptom of an arousal. We don't remember dreaming unless we wake up in the middle or right at the end of a dream. The fact that you remember lots of dreams tells me that you are waking more often than you realize you are. People don't always remember arousals/awakenings but if you are remembering dreams...you are waking often.
People think remembering dreams is a good thing...it actually isn't because it means we are waking often. When we sleep soundly we still dream but we won't remember it because we don't wake up.

When awake/semi awake or after an arousal our breathing is irregular and will often cause the machine to do a little flagging. Remember these machines only measure air flow. They have no way to measure sleep status.

How do we fix or reduce the number of post arousal centrals (or any flagged post arousal event as it can be any of the flagged events)....we have to sleep more soundly with less arousals. Easier said than done I know.
We can have breathing related arousals...like when the airway collapses and we struggle to breathe...and if you better prevent the collapses then you can better prevent arousals related to airway collapses. That's how CPAP therapy helps improve sleep quality.
Unfortunately we can also have spontaneous arousals...not related to breathing obstructions or problems and those arousals are much harder to prevent because we don't always know what is causing them and it's kinda hard to fix a problem if we don't know the cause of the problem.

Having an occasional real central isn't a big deal because it's normal to have an occasional central. Like sleep onset centrals...those are normal and not usually a problem. So a random central isn't cause for alarm. They are usually very brief and won't last long enough to cause any oxygen level drops or issues. Hold your breath for 10 to 20 seconds. That's essentially what a 10 to 20 second central is.
The airway is open but to air is moving. You can do this easily and it won't cause a problem unless you start doing it often within a really short period of time.
But here's the deal...when you have lots of arousals or awakenings (you may or may not remember any of them) you then also have another chance to go back to sleep and have another sleep onset central. So you get maybe more sleep onset centrals just from poor sleep quality as well as some likely post arousal not real central flagging going on. Makes it look like the centrals are the problem but instead the centrals are really a symptom of a problem and the problem is poor sleep quality from the multiple arousals/awakenings.
You prevent the centrals by improving sleep quality and reducing the arousals.

The obstructive component of your report is showing that the OSA stuff is well treated...so we assume that those arousals aren't related to breathing issues. That leaves spontaneous arousals as the likely culprit and those are hard to deal with because we don't always know what is causing them.

You are one week into therapy....that really isn't very long in the grand scheme of things and just wearing all this stuff is enough to cause the brain to go to hyper alert status and be much more likely to cause you to have an arousal because the brain hasn't yet come to terms with its new best friend...the mask and the machine ...so the brain will want to poke you and wake you up just to alert you which I always called it my brain poking me and saying "hey dude, do you know there is an alien stuck on your face blowing air up your nose".
Hopefully this will be the situation for you and with some time the brain will stop with the "hey dude" pokes to wake you up. I think it took me about 3 months before my brain quit doing the "hey dude" thing. Each person is different in how long it takes their brain to come to terms with all this new stuff being attached to us.

Of course there are other reasons for spontaneous arousals or poor sleep quality. Medication side effects are one reason. Other health issues is another. Pain or bed comfort reasons are other culprits. And unfortunately sometimes we simply don't know the reason.
It's normal to have a few arousals or awakenings....like it's normal to awaken briefly after a REM stage sleep is completed. Most of the time awake is very brief and we don't have time to form a memory of the awakening. So some of your post arousal centrals might simply be from a brief arousal that happens after a REM cycle is completed and then you go back to sleep and maybe have a real sleep onset central. That's why we don't worry about random real centrals.

So for you we say give it some time for the brain to get used to its new best friend and hope that your overall sleep quality will improved and you will have less arousals and with less arousals the chances of post arousal centrals will also reduce.
Work on your general overall sleep hygiene issues in case you are doing something bad in terms of sleep hygiene that is known to mess with sleep quality. Caffeine is a big culprit there along with late night use of the computer or phone. Review any medications you might take (even OTC stuff) that might also have an impact on sleep quality. I take a pain pill for my arthritis that comes with a may cause drowsiness sticker on it but for me it causes insomnia...I go to sleep fairly quickly but it won't last. In a couple of hours I am wide awake and cleaning the house. :lol: It's a side effect that happens to a really small percentage of people who take that particular medication.
So I have to take a different pain med at bedtime because if I didn't the pain would wake me more often than it does now and it's pretty bad now even with the different medication. Talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Try to quit worrying about the centrals being a cause of a problem but instead they are a symptom of a problem that you need to try to figure out and address. The problem being poor sleep quality in general from multiple arousals/awakenings. It's not always an easy problem to identify the cause of though but you can try with some detective work...and at the same time do give it time for the brain to learn to accept all this new stuff being attached to us.

Do you have another appointment for follow up with your sleep doctor some time in the future? Usually they do one sometime after 30 days beginning treatment up to 90 days because a lot of insurance require it. If after 30 days you are still showing evidence of poor sleep quality with a lot of post arousal flagged events then talk to your doctor about ways to improve sleep quality.

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clenchingtobreathe
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Re: Too many Clear Airway apneas

Post by clenchingtobreathe » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:23 am

Pugsy wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:38 am



Unfortunately we can also have spontaneous arousals...not related to breathing obstructions or problems and those arousals are much harder to prevent because we don't always know what is causing them and it's kinda hard to fix a problem if we don't know the cause of the problem.

Try to quit worrying about the centrals being a cause of a problem but instead they are a symptom of a problem that you need to try to figure out and address. The problem being poor sleep quality in general from multiple arousals/awakenings. It's not always an easy problem to identify the cause of though but you can try with some detective work...and at the same time do give it time for the brain to learn to accept all this new stuff being attached to us.
All of this is such good information, Pugsy! I ALWAYS show more CA's that OA's on my SH report and now I can relate nearly ALL of them to spontaneous arousals. I do not sleep well.....and like you said, the causes are many....too hot...too cold....pain...real-life worries....etc. I have not been able to sleep in one position for very long for MANY years! Your simple explanations have certainly reduced my anxiety about the CA's though. When I feel like I have tossed and turned a lot, I will also see a higher number of CA's.

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Re: Too many Clear Airway apneas

Post by palerider » Sun Sep 30, 2018 1:06 pm

mehran wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:25 am
palerider wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:39 am
Looks like three post arousal centrals and one real one... in that order.
Thanks
How do you recognize that? and what's your suggestion to reduce post arousal centrals?
Because there was a breathing disturbance *before* the central. so something disturbed your sleep.

Maybe it was an ache or pain, maybe it was a sharp elbow in the side because you'd pissed off your bed partner earlier in the evening... who knows... but it wasn't necessarily sleep related, therefore, there's nothing in your sleep data that suggests a solution..

Since you played the clipart game (can you tell I hate it when people only show a one or two strips?) it's unclear if you were having snoring recorded, or flow limitations (though the breaths in the first chart look a little flow limited) at the time your breathing was disturbed.

Looks like your machine wanted to raise pressure to address (probably) flow limitations, but you're keeping it from happening.

Set the max pressure to 20, leave the min at 10, let's see what happens.

Don't play clipart anymore, post full screen shots, zoomed in as needed... also, use the pressure, not mask pressure trace.

Nothing to add to what Pugsy says, her advice is golden... I usually don't worry about centrals till they're twice what you're having, since they're not very disturbing... as she said, hold your breath for 20 seconds... no biggie, now pinch your nose shut and TRY to breathe for 20 seconds... that's an obstructive, that's stressful.... centrals aren't stressful.

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mehran
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Re: Too many Clear Airway apneas

Post by mehran » Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:17 am

Thank you all for your responses. You are so helpful : )

I have only one more question :
I wake up every morning with stomach bloating. I also have GERD.
Is it possible that because of not enough air pressure, my airway closes and air finds its way to my stomach instead of my lungs and therefore the device recognizes this situation as a CA apnea? even though it actually might be a real obstructive apnea?

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Re: Too many Clear Airway apneas

Post by Pugsy » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:03 am

mehran wrote:
Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:17 am
I have only one more question :
I wake up every morning with stomach bloating. I also have GERD.
Is it possible that because of not enough air pressure, my airway closes and air finds its way to my stomach instead of my lungs and therefore the device recognizes this situation as a CA apnea? even though it actually might be a real obstructive apnea?
No.

The bloated belly is a separate issue totally.
It's called aerophagia
wiki/index.php/Aerophagia

The first thing I would do if it was very annoying is make use of EPR. Using EPR creates a bilevel situation so less constant pressure on the LES (lower esophageal sphincter) so less chance of air pushing past the sphincter to enter the stomach.
For extreme cases we also limit the machine's pressures. Lots of ways to fight aerophagia depending on just how annoying it is.

And while using bilevel or EPR/exhale relief can cause centrals in some people...it's a really small number of people who have that happen. If it were very common we wouldn't have exhale relief available as a comfort feature to nearly every machine out there for people to use at their own choice.

Now the bloated belly issue could be a factor in causing arousals and the arousal end up causing the central to get a flag.
Discomfort from the belly issue can affect our sleep quality. Anything that causes arousals can end up being the primary reason for a central flag from a post arousal breathing pause.

For some people aerophagia issues will diminish with time but for others they continue to be annoying enough that something has to be done.

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Jdizzle
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Re: Too many Clear Airway apneas

Post by Jdizzle » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:17 am

My issue with Aerophagia was just due to not being able to breathe against the machine. Going to 3 EPR got rid of the aerophagia completely, but caused more recorded centrals. Lowering it to 1 got rid of the Centrals but caused more Aerophagia. I run it at 2 now, and force myself to sleep on my side(left) and my "real" Centrals are pretty much gone. I still get a little bit of air in my gut, but it's absolutely tolerable and doesn't wake me up in pain like it did when I first started raising pressure. Now I'm waiting to see if the longer I use the machine, the lower my recorded Centrals get. So far it's been going down a little bit on average every week.

Hope that helps

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mehran
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Re: Too many Clear Airway apneas

Post by mehran » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:24 am

Set the max pressure to 20, leave the min at 10, let's see what happens.
The first thing I would do if it was very annoying is make use of EPR
Thank you again Pugsy
I'm gonna give this a try tonight.

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Additional Comments: I'm 27 struggling with the sleep apnea that effected my life quality in the last 3 years.