F&P 432 Love it or hate it!!!!!

curtcurt46 · Post by **curtcurt46** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:48 pm

I just purchased the F&P 432 full face mask for those nights I feel too congested for my nasal mask. I have a couple of question I would like to offer for comments each proceeded by a little background.

Well the F&P is well made and I didn't seem to have any problems with getting a seal initially. It really felt pretty good. However after a few hours sleeping I would wake to leaks around the cushion on both sides and the chin. My pressure was running about 14-15cm IPAP, so I adjusted the straps and this seemed to stop the leaks. However , I woke a short time later leaking again. I got up and took off the mask and discovered the cushion was wet either from humidity or perspiration where the cushion contacts the facial skin. This moisture seem to be the problem. Has any one out there had the same experience and found a fix?

I also noticed that my AHI's and snore data from encore pro are two or three times higher than what I experience with my activa. Last night I used the F&P for the second time and just to see what would happen I changed to the activa for the later half of the night. The details are dramatically different between the two masks. I got much lower VS, H, and OA's with the activa. I am hoping someone has an idea why such a dramatic difference between the two masks. Any ideas? Could it be dead space?

I am not ready to give up on the F&P 432 just yet, but I may if I can't solve the leak issues.

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CPAPopedia Keywords Contained In This Post (Click For Definition): activa, Encore Pro, AHI, seal

Lee Lee · Post by **Lee Lee** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:30 pm

I also have higher leak rates with this mask. I also have had the moisture problem, even with a heated hose, and the hose cover.
I will tell you that when I got a size large, rather than the medium I should have been able to wear, the leak rate went down somewhat, but not within normal range.
My AHI was higher than when I use my nasal mask also.
It seems to be a great mask in terms of comfort, but I'm about to give up on it.
I wish I could help you more! The important thing, is, how do you feel the next day?
Best wishes,
Lee Ann

jacko · Post by **jacko** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:44 pm

I have a432 also and have not used it for a few nights
The moisture in the mask seems high and I also have a heated hose
The leaks don't seem to bad but I haven't checked my software for quite sometime ,because I really don't know what Im looking at
I have a medium mask and I probably should of got the large ,but Im sort of stuck with it now
Don't want to spend the $$ incase the large is no better
The main problem I have is it makes the bridge of my nose as red as red and I cant work out why ,the straps are not very tight and it feels comfortable on
I might be better off with a larger size
Regards Jacko

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:22 pm

Thanks to Lee Lee and Jacko,
Maybe someone will comment that has had better results than the three of us. Thanks for your comments. I wish I really understood the dynamics of this mask so I could then get it to perform for me. There are bound to be success stories out there. Again thanks.

MandoJohnny · Post by **MandoJohnny** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:45 pm

I just tried the 432, just to have for nights when I have nasal congestion, but I too had leaks. I should have taken a large, but the large had huge leak problems. I exchanged it for a medium, which was better, but not enough better. The only way I could get the leaks to stop was to tighten the lower strap way past comfort. It was hard to get to sleep wearing it. Now I can't do another exchange, so I am stuck with it.

Lee Lee · Post by **Lee Lee** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:01 pm

I didn't mention before that I also had terrible problems with the bridge of my nose being sore. When I changed from the medium to the large it was MUCH better, but I used some moleskin and it helped alot. I cannot figure out why it would hurt the bridge of the nose, since the only thing touching it seems to be the soft cushion.
It's a mystery.
Best,
Lee Ann

OwlCreekObserver · Post by **OwlCreekObserver** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:11 pm

I fish my 432 out of the "doesn't work" drawer every now and then, most recently a few nights ago.

My worst leaks are on the left side, just above my chin. My jaw isn't perfectly symmetrical and I've been assuming that's the problem. I think the foam insert doesn't allow enough flexibility for the mask to adjust to the contours of my face. I have to tighten it down to where it's too uncomfortable to wear and of course there's the sore nose thing as well.

But hope springs eternal. I'll keep on trying different things and maybe I'll eventually find a solution. If I do, I'll post it on this forum.

OCO

Snoredog · Post by **Snoredog** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:30 pm

I seen from the start the 432 interface didn't have a forehead support/pivot. It is the reason I passed on ever trying it.

I've learned the hard way without that feature you have a difficult time controlling leaks as there is no "pivot point" or way to stop leaks into the eyes or chin area other than tightening straps which can create other problems as you may have found out.

If the mask is allowed to pivot on its own, then it can easily develop a leak when your mouth relaxes or drops during REM. Adding to the leak, that mask seems to have a higher CO2 washout rate. If you refer back to the Harvard CSDB study retaining more CO2 may be the better way to go for a lower AHI score not greater. That study showed that is how they controlled CSDB, using a mask with greater dead space and blocking off exhaust ports to manipulate CO2 levels then using a special machine that does a better job at avoiding central type events. If you are experiencing those central type events as with CSDB study, retaining more CO2 seems to manipulate those chemoreceptors which increase your respiratory drive so you take a breath on your own.

It can also be that the full face mask is physically pulling the lower jaw/mandible back making OSA worse. If you have to cinch up on the straps to stop leaks this can pull the mandible back in the adverse direction or opposite as say a dental device would function, actually narrowing of the airway making OSA condition worse.

With a nasal mask you don't have that problem. There is no strap pressure on the lower mandible only pressure is applied on the upper lip and nose area since there are no moving parts in that part of the anatomy the mandible doesn't get pulled back and therefor doesn't narrow the airway.

The Activa does have a greater CO2 retention rate compared to most other masks, it also has much greater dead space with the larger bellows active cushion.

The true test of any mask is if you are using it a month or two months down the road, because if it works for you, you will use it every night until something else comes along better. If I can use a new mask for a week straight, I can usually use it from then on.

curtcurt46 · Post by **curtcurt46** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:52 pm

Snoredog,
You have some very good points. I guess I have to learn the hard way also. Like you suggest I keep going back to the activa as my favorite. However, I did have success with the F&P 407 nasal, which is my back-up to the activa. I am still looking for a full face mask that's better than the Ultra Mirage FF and that's why I tried the F&P 432. The Ultra Mirage FF gave me poor AHI's and leaked at pressures above 14 cm. I will keep trying as I can get a new mask every 3 months. Thank goodness the activa is sturdy.

I good point on the full face mask which I never thought about is that it pulls the jaw backwards, which is kinda counter productive.

If anyone wants to try the F&P 432 in medium I might make them a good deal. Just send me a PM. It brand new with the box and all materials that came with it.

Alisha · Post by **Alisha** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:13 pm

Curtcurt, you might want to try Kreesti's remedy before you give up and sell the 432.

viewtopic.php?p=136445&highlight=gauze+sponges#136445

Snoredog · Post by **Snoredog** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:18 pm

curtcurt46 wrote:Snoredog,
You have some very good points. I guess I have to learn the hard way also. Like you suggest I keep going back to the activa as my favorite. However, I did have success with the F&P 407 nasal, which is my back-up to the activa. I am still looking for a full face mask that's better than the Ultra Mirage FF and that's why I tried the F&P 432. The Ultra Mirage FF gave me poor AHI's and leaked at pressures above 14 cm. I will keep trying as I can get a new mask every 3 months. Thank goodness the activa is sturdy.

I good point on the full face mask which I never thought about is that it pulls the jaw backwards, which is kinda counter productive.

If anyone wants to try the F&P 432 in medium I might make them a good deal. Just send me a PM. It brand new with the box and all materials that came with it.

Strap pressure in making the mask seal is very important. The Activa requires nil pressure compared to other interfaces due to the design of the cushion (internal flap and bellows). That mask is proof that with a properly designed cushion you don't need a lot of strap pressure.

If I compare the Activa, UMII, ComfortSeries nasal interfaces to the Soyala, I have the least strap pressure with the Activa and the Soyala. The Soyala is the first mask I've used that had streatchy headgear. No comparison to the others, I clearly have to have to tighten the straps on the others to make the seal.

There is probably a reason Resmed hasn't come out yet with a Activa Full Face mask.

When you add in the mandible that moves, that complicates things much more. Just because one mask works with the nasal version doesn't mean it will work as well in the Full Face version.

Same could be said with the Somnotech the Soyala and Yara. At this point the Yara is just vaporware as I can't see any place to buy it. But it could be a flop just like many others. You can only assume that if the nasal version seals better than average in the nasal version that there is hope for the full face version.

My AHI numbers are way down since starting with the Soyala nasal mask. I only used the FF in the past due to mouth breathing. Before cpap I used to snore pretty bad and that was done with the mouth open. When I would set the Mask Alert on the machine it would go off, I continued to use the Alert even with the UMFF, when I got a leak with that it would sound the alarm. I've only had the alarm go off once since using the Soyala about 2 months now and it was from mouth breathing (had no tape). Think I'll try training myself to stop mouth breathing when that alarm sounds, problem is that alarm is so low on the M series I doubt it will wake me up if it did go off. As long as my leak rate stays in check I should be fine. I try not to tape if I can help it.

jacko · Post by **jacko** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:37 pm

Lee Lee wrote:I didn't mention before that I also had terrible problems with the bridge of my nose being sore. When I changed from the medium to the large it was MUCH better, but I used some moleskin and it helped alot. I cannot figure out why it would hurt the bridge of the nose, since the only thing touching it seems to be the soft cushion.
It's a mystery.
Best,
Lee Ann

Im with you LeeLee
I just cant work out why it has such a effect on the nose ,it seem so soft
if ya ever work out how to stop it please let me know
Regards Jacko

Alisha · Post by **Alisha** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:33 pm

Kreesti also figured out what causes the 432 to leave marks on the nose bridge. If anyone wants to understand, read what she has said. I examined my 432 and agree with her assessment.

viewtopic.php?p=136445&highlight=gauze+sponges#136445

DreamStalker · Post by **DreamStalker** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:39 pm

I have been playing around with the 432 also for same reasons ... as a backup for an unavoidable visit by the congestion monster.

I don't have any issues with the nose bridge or moisture. My top strap is so loose that it almost serves no purpose and I have never experienced any kind of rainout. However, I too get a nice comfortable seal during the first half of the night and then develop leaks that I am unable to fix during the later half ... weird.

I do find SD's points quite interesting though.

Fortunately, the congestion monster has not found me since going on PAP treatment and I have been getting excellent treatment and sleep with my trusty Breeze.

Linda3032 · Post by **Linda3032** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:01 pm

I don't have the mask, but here are some suggestions that might or might not help.

1. Turn your humidifier down on the lowest setting. This will help prevent rainout, and the mask won't "slip" as badly.

2. Make sure you remove all oils from your face prior to bedtime, and use alcohol wipes to clean the mask silicone.

3. Put some "sticky stuff" on the mask to help hold it to your face so it doesn't slip as easily. Here's a link from this forum discussing that:
viewtopic.php?t=10126&highlight=benzoin

Hope it gets better for you.

Machine	Mask	Humidifier

Machine	Mask	Humidifier