Assistance requested re: SH leak data

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augustsilverbear
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Assistance requested re: SH leak data

Post by augustsilverbear » Sat Mar 12, 2016 8:45 pm

I am new to CPAP (one month), new to Sleepyhead, and am attempting to find my way in the bewildering new life changing series of events since diagnosis with OSA. My diagnosis AHI was 12.3, and my one month average AHI was 13.46. My initial pressure Rx set on my DreamStation CPAP auto after the diagnostic and therapeutic sleep study was 6-8cm H2O.

In the initial days following diagnosis and after consultation with the sleep doc, I found this forum and began to read and investigate. I am deeply grateful for those who have helped me with my first few inquiries on the forum and have led me to a successful download of Sleepyhead 1.0 beta - 1 and the successful importation of my data. (Thank you, palerider.)

I have read and re-read the Beginner’s Guide to Sleepyhead, and have attempted to address the prompts for new users to set the preferences for use detailed there. That Guide is such a great help to new users with limited technical knowledge and computer skills, such as myself. I am also deeply grateful to those who took the time to share their skills and knowledge to develop Sleepyhead (jedimark, palerider), and to those who wrote the Guide for new users needing help and understanding with an OSA diagnosis.

Relying on information here, I began to understand that my AHI should have begun to decrease if my therapy was consistent, and to my dismay it was not declining. After revisiting the sleep center to select a second mask, and again visiting the DME for yet a third mask, my ahi began to stabilize in the low teens, but only dropped below the diagnosis AHI a few times. My post diagnosis followup visit at the Sleep Center is not until the 24th on March, so in desperation I contacted the Center, asked that they review my data, and increase my pressure sufficient to provide a therapeutic benefit to these mask wearing nights I have been enduring!

March 11 was my first night with a new pressure Rx of 8-12 cmH2O. While it was not a night of restful sleep due to several factors related to the pressure increase, my resultant AHI dropped to 4.63. Regrettably, if someone other than I had been monitoring my data, perhaps a resultant pressure increase could have occurred far sooner. You guys have taught me that I am to be my own advocate, as likely no one else will assume that role. I suspect my DME provider is only interested in my compliance so they can get paid, and sadly, the sleep doc with whom I am associated has demonstrated only that he has more pressing demands on his time than to follow up on newly diagnosed patients and the success of their early treatment. Perhaps I am expecting too much.

Anyway, the point to all this rambling is a question about the leak rate reflected on my March 11 Sleepyhead report. I am going to try to attach the report, but because of my limited skill level, I am not sure I have mastered those steps yet.

Image

There are no markers for Large Leak in the Events screen, yet the Leak rate in Statistics shows Min. 9, Median 17, 95% 26, Max 33. If I understand the Guide discussion, and there is much there about leak rates, because my preferences for leak rate Redline default was set at 24L/min (ResMed Value) and my 95% rate was 26, it appears to mean that 95% of the time the leak rate from my Amara View FF mask from my Dream Station CPAP auto was at or below 26L/min, with a maximum leak of 33L/min that only lasted for a few moments. I have examined the LeakRate screen, and have expanded the data field to spot the peaks in leak values for when they occurred overnight, and have spotted the point at which leak rose to approximately 33 for a very brief period. Perhaps I still do not understand! If the default Redline value was 24L/min, why was there not a marker on the Events screen showing a large leak when the rate exceeded 24L/min? Also, I see no redline on the Leak Rate screen anywhere??? ( I have, today, changed the RedLine Option setting to 80L/min as I believe the Guide instructed for Phillips Respironics systems with a pressure setting of 8-12, which I now have. Did I misunderstand those instructions?

Wading through all that Leak discussion in the Guide was complicated, and perhaps I still need a tutorial, but given the March 11 data, can you advise if I had a leak rate for that date that is of concern? Previous leak rates at lower pressure are no longer relevant, but for the past 7 days Statistics shows a 90% leak rate at at 21 and at 20 for the last 30 days at 6-8 cmH2O.

I had a perceived leaks at both cheeks, at the bridge of the nose, and at the chin last night with the increase in the pressure, but this morning the DreamMapper App showed 100% mask fit with 0% leaks, and the Sleepyhead data appears to show no concern. Am I understanding these data correctly?

I know this is a long and rambling post, for which I apologize.
I would appreciate your responses to the above question, and to any other concerns visible regarding the SH data from March 11. Thank you for your help.
august silverbear


Some of my above remarks reference Guide language shown below.

A detailed look at the Show Leak Redline option
The default is to have this checked and the default value for the Redline is the ResMed value of 24 L/min.

Philips Respironics System One. The Philips Respironics machines report TOTAL leak, but Philips Respironics never tells us what the official definition of a Large Leak. SleepyHead 0.9.6 now flags the official Encore Large Leaks as gray bars over the Flow Rate graph. So if you get a lot of large leaks, you can use that data to help you decide where to draw a Large leak line. But until you get some data, here's a staring place to make some guesses about where to draw the Redline that are based on looking at a lot of Encore data from a lot of Philips Respironics users over the years:

New Series 60 System One machines. If you are using a pressure setting that is higher than 8-10cm, the Encore software usually does not flag Large Leaks until the Total Leak rate is up around 80 L/min.

So start by selecting a Redline of 80 L/min if you are using pressures above 8 cm and a Redline of 50 L/min if you are using pressures below 8 cm. Adjust if you see Gray Large Leak bars in your actual data.

_________________
Machine: DreamStation Auto CPAP Machine
Mask: Amara View Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: DreamStation Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Pico Nasal Mask with headgear,Mirage Quattro FF with headgear, ResMed chin strap, Pressure: fixed at 11, w/ EPAP relief (Flex)

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palerider
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Re: Assistance requested re: SH leak data

Post by palerider » Sat Mar 12, 2016 9:07 pm

augustsilverbear wrote:I know this is a long and rambling post, for which I apologize.
I would appreciate your responses to the above question, and to any other concerns visible regarding the SH data from March 11. Thank you for your help.
would you mind very much summarizing the questions?

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robysue
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Re: Assistance requested re: SH leak data

Post by robysue » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:31 pm

agustsilver,

You are asking for feedback about the meaning of the leak rate numbers that SH is showing for you.

You are using a PR DreamStation. The raw data recorded by the machine is the total leak rate, which includes both the expected leak rate and the excess (unintentional) leak rate. In SH, the total leak rate is the top graph in the Leak graph and the summary numbers are called the Total Leak Rate numbers. The bottom graph in SH is a SleepyHead estimate of the unintentional leak and the summary numbers for this bottom graph are called the Leak Rate numbers.

You are using SH-1.0-beta. It's important to understand that in SH 1.0-beta, the Leak Rate estimates are calculated from the raw Total Leak Rate data and using a setting in the CPAP part of the Preferences panel that is shown in the red box in the figure below:
Image

In order for the estimated Leak Rate numbers to be reasonably accurate, you must make sure that the expected Leak Rate at 4cm and 20cm is correctly entered. You find these leak rates in the owner's manual for the mask. The owner's manual for the Amara can be found at http://www.directhomemedical.com/masks- ... ctions.pdf and on page 8 there is the expected leak graph for the Amara mask. According to the chart in the user's manual, the expected leak rate for the Amara is:
  • about 20 L/min at 4 cm of pressure
  • about 41 L/min at 20 cm of pressure
So make sure that your SH preferences are set accordingly.

But even with correct values for the expected leak rate entered into SH, the Leak Rate graph and numbers are still estimates that are computed in SH rather than numbers that come from your machine. Hence I tend to prefer to look at the Total Leak Rate graph and numbers since they are recorded directly by the machine. In order to interpret the Total Leak Rate graph and numbers, you need to know the expected leak rate at your pressures. You get that from the chart on page 8 of the owners manual. You are using pressures between 8 and 12 cm. The chart indicates that expected leak rate at 8cm is about 28 L/min and the expected leak rate at 12 cm is about 32 L/min. Hence if there is no unintentional leaking going on, you would expect your Total Leak Rate graph to stay around 30 L/min. I would actually expect the Total Leak Rate graph to stay pretty much between 25 and 35 L/min if there was little or no unintentional leaking going on.

Now go back and look at your SH data: Your Total Leak Rate graph is pretty consistently above 35 L/min. And much of the time it's well above 35 L/min. At the beginning of the night, the Total Leak Rate is between 40 and 50 L/min with a few peaks up around 65 L/min, which means there's some real leaking going on at the beginning of the night.

Now you've observed that there were no official Large Leaks recorded as well as the fact that SH reports 0% time over the Red Line.

Let's deal with each thing separately:

Why no official Large Leaks?
PR is not transparent about what actually constitutes an official Large Leak. In the previous generation System One machines, the Large Leak line was dependent on the pressure level, but was not a clear cut line. In looking at lots and lots of Total Leak Line graphs from PR machines through the years, its clear that Large Leaks are not usually triggered if the Total Leak Rate is less than 50 or 60 L/min. Some people don't see many official Large Leaks until their Total Leak Rate is closer to 70 or 80 L/min. So from your machine's point view, your leaks (while pretty consistent and sometime rather large) are not large enough to cause problems for the machine in terms of maintaining the require pressure in your upper airway and the reliability of the data.

Why does SH report 0% time over the RedLine?
I'm pretty sure that this is because you are using a PR machine. The "Red Line" is the Resmed way of determining Large Leaks. On a Resmed machine, the large leaks are not "flagged" like they are on a PR machine. Rather, the Remeds only record excess leak and Resmed defines anything over 24 L/min as a Large Leak. And SH reports the % time when the Leak graph for a Resmed machine is over 24 L/min so that a Resmed user knows how bad their official Large Leaks are. Even if a PR user defines a "Red Line", it's not clear to me that SH uses it to compute a % time over Red Line since it already computes directly the "Large Leak %" from the Large Leak flags. Perhaps Pale Rider can stop by and comment more on how the Red Line feature works for PR users in SH.

Finally I want to respond to some of what you specifically.
augustsilverbear wrote:here are no markers for Large Leak in the Events screen, yet the Leak rate in Statistics shows Min. 9, Median 17, 95% 26, Max 33. If I understand the Guide discussion, and there is much there about leak rates, because my preferences for leak rate Redline default was set at 24L/min (ResMed Value) and my 95% rate was 26, it appears to mean that 95% of the time the leak rate from my Amara View FF mask from my Dream Station CPAP auto was at or below 26L/min, with a maximum leak of 33L/min that only lasted for a few moments.
You are right: The estimated Leak Graph was at or below 26 L/min for 95% of the night. That means it was above 26 L/min for no more than 5% of the night. It is quite possible that your (estimated unintentional) Leak Rate was at 33 L/min for only a few seconds to a few minutes.

The "RedLine" definition in SH has no relevance in determining the 95% value for the Leak Graph.
I have examined the LeakRate screen, and have expanded the data field to spot the peaks in leak values for when they occurred overnight, and have spotted the point at which leak rose to approximately 33 for a very brief period. Perhaps I still do not understand! If the default Redline value was 24L/min, why was there not a marker on the Events screen showing a large leak when the rate exceeded 24L/min?
The LL flags in the Events table correspond to official Large Leaks as determined by the software in your PR DreamStation. The PR algorithm for determining Large Leaks is NOT based on the SH estimated excess Leak Rate graph. In your case, your PR DreamStation did not flag the large leak as an official Large Leak. Hence there's no LL flag in the events table.
Also, I see no redline on the Leak Rate screen anywhere??? ( I have, today, changed the RedLine Option setting to 80L/min as I believe the Guide instructed for Phillips Respironics systems with a pressure setting of 8-12, which I now have. Did I misunderstand those instructions?
I suspect that this is either because SH 1.0 -beta either is supposed to suppress the Redline for non-Resmed machines. Or you've found a SH bug. For what it's worth, I've not been able to get the Redline to show up consistently for my PR S1 Auto BiPAP in SH 1.0-beta (I'm one of JediMark's early testers for the snapshot versions of SH.)
I have, today, changed the RedLine Option setting to 80L/min as I believe the Guide instructed for Phillips Respironics systems with a pressure setting of 8-12, which I now have.
This is VERY interesting information: Can you post an image of the part of your DreamStation guide that says that Large Leaks are flagged at 80 L/min? This is the first time I've seen somebody post this kind of information about Large Leaks in PR machines that come from an official PR publication.

However, since your user guide for the PR DreamStation says that Large Leaks are defined as Total Leaks > 80 L/min at 8-12 cm of pressure, that clearly explains why there are no official Large Leak flags shown in the Event table. At no point was the Total Leak Rate anywhere close to 80 L/min. Hence there were no official Large Leaks scored by your DreamStation. Hence there were no LL flags for SH to display in the events table.
given the March 11 data, can you advise if I had a leak rate for that date that is of concern? Previous leak rates at lower pressure are no longer relevant, but for the past 7 days Statistics shows a 90% leak rate at at 21 and at 20 for the last 30 days at 6-8 cmH2O.

I had a perceived leaks at both cheeks, at the bridge of the nose, and at the chin last night with the increase in the pressure, but this morning the DreamMapper App showed 100% mask fit with 0% leaks, and the Sleepyhead data appears to show no concern. Am I understanding these data correctly?
From a technical sense, the leaks are not large enough to seriously affect your data. But the largest ones are getting close to being official Large Leaks. Basically in DreamMapper, the MaskFit number and the % leaks number add to 100%: Mask Fit gives the % time when the leaks were below the official Large Leak territory and the % leaks is really % Time in Large Leak.

But whether the leaks are large enough to be scored as Large Leaks is only part of the picture. You are leaking at a rate that's between 17 and 33 L/min above the expected leak rate for at least 50% of the night. That's enough to cause fragmented sleep. And anything that disrupts your sleep is important enough to address. In other words, if you can figure out a way to reduce the leaks to the point where the Median Total Leak Rate is closer to 30-35 L/min and the Median Leak Rate is closer to 0-5 L/min, you may find that you are a lot less restless during the night. And that will probably improve your AHI as well as how you feel when you wake up.
March 11 was my first night with a new pressure Rx of 8-12 cmH2O. While it was not a night of restful sleep due to several factors related to the pressure increase, my resultant AHI dropped to 4.63.
You posted a pretty busy night in terms of events, RERAs, and snoring. It could be that you need to increase the minimum pressure a bit more. (It's also interesting that all the snoring is VS2 snores, even though you're running in Auto mode. Perhaps PR has changed the way it records snores.)
I suspect my DME provider is only interested in my compliance so they can get paid, and sadly, the sleep doc with whom I am associated has demonstrated only that he has more pressing demands on his time than to follow up on newly diagnosed patients and the success of their early treatment. Perhaps I am expecting too much.
Your expectations are realistic in terms of what patients actually need. But they are too much in terms of what the average DME actually delivers to their patients/customers.

_________________
Machine: DreamStation BiPAP® Auto Machine
Mask: Swift™ FX Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: PR System DreamStation and Humidifier. Max IPAP = 9, Min EPAP=4, Rise time setting = 3, minPS = 3, maxPS=5

augustsilverbear
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Re: Assistance requested re: SH leak data

Post by augustsilverbear » Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:31 pm

Thank you robysue for your detailed response to my question. I greatly appreciate your explanation of my leak rate concerns.

Regarding your statement:
"In order for the estimated Leak Rate numbers to be reasonably accurate, you must make sure that the expected Leak Rate at 4cm and 20cm is correctly entered. You find these leak rates in the owner's manual for the mask. The owner's manual for the Amara can be found at http://www.directhomemedical.com/masks- ... ctions.pdf and on page 8 there is the expected leak graph for the Amara mask. According to the chart in the user's manual, the expected leak rate for the Amara is:
about 20 L/min at 4 cm of pressure
about 41 L/min at 20 cm of pressure
So make sure that your SH preferences are set accordingly."


I have inserted the above values for the Amara View mask into the SH preferences.

Regarding your statement:
"The chart indicates that expected leak rate at 8cm is about 28 L/min and the expected leak rate at 12 cm is about 32 L/min. Hence if there is no unintentional leaking going on, you would expect your Total Leak Rate graph to stay around 30 L/min. I would actually expect the Total Leak Rate graph to stay pretty much between 25 and 35 L/min if there was little or no unintentional leaking going on."

Thank you for the expected/intentional leak rates for the Amara View and a benchmark to watch for leaks above those expected/intentional leak rates for my mask.

I understand from your explanation why there were no Large Leaks indicated in either the data sundry or the Events screen.

I also understand why no Redline was reflected on my Dream Station device.

Regarding your comment below the statement copied from my post (underlined):
I have, today, changed the RedLine Option setting to 80L/min as I believe the Guide instructed for Phillips Respironics systems with a pressure setting of 8-12, which I now have.
"This is VERY interesting information: Can you post an image of the part of your DreamStation guide that says that Large Leaks are flagged at 80 L/min? This is the first time I've seen somebody post this kind of information about Large Leaks in PR machines that come from an official PR publication."

The Guide of which I spoke is NOT the Phillips Respironics Dream Station Guide. It is the Beginner’s Guide to Sleepyhead. I applied the language it used regarding PR Series 60, System One machines when determining Large Leak rates at >80L/min for the purpose of applying a Red Line option setting in SH Preferences. I made an assumption that perhaps that same logic applied to the Dream Station machine, causing me to set that leak rate in Preferences.

I now understand that the RedLine option likely is not operative in Dream Station machines, so i guess that point, and question is moot.

My only real question in all that rambling post was:
...given the March 11 data, can you advise if I had a leak rate for that date that is of concern?

You responded:
"But whether the leaks are large enough to be scored as Large Leaks is only part of the picture. You are leaking at a rate that's between 17 and 33 L/min above the expected leak rate for at least 50% of the night. That's enough to cause fragmented sleep. And anything that disrupts your sleep is important enough to address. In other words, if you can figure out a way to reduce the leaks to the point where the Median Total Leak Rate is closer to 30-35 L/min and the Median Leak Rate is closer to 0-5 L/min, you may find that you are a lot less restless during the night. And that will probably improve your AHI as well as how you feel when you wake up."


I have one additional question from your response.
Please help me understand how you came to the calculation below:

"You are leaking at a rate that's between 17 and 33 L/min above the expected leak rate for at least 50% of the night."

I will monitor my SH data for the next few nights, and then I expect to have many more questions about sleep quality, which has been rather low since the pressure increase.

Thank you so much for your help in understanding all this. I am deeply grateful for the time you have invested in my understanding and hopefully improved sleep and health.
augustsilverbear

_________________
Machine: DreamStation Auto CPAP Machine
Mask: Amara View Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: DreamStation Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Pico Nasal Mask with headgear,Mirage Quattro FF with headgear, ResMed chin strap, Pressure: fixed at 11, w/ EPAP relief (Flex)

augustsilverbear
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Re: Assistance requested re: SH leak data

Post by augustsilverbear » Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:36 pm

palerider,
My only real question in all that rambling post was:
...given the March 11 data, can you advise if I had a leak rate for that date that is of concern?
If you have additional responses, I would appreciate it.
augustsilverbear

_________________
Machine: DreamStation Auto CPAP Machine
Mask: Amara View Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: DreamStation Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Pico Nasal Mask with headgear,Mirage Quattro FF with headgear, ResMed chin strap, Pressure: fixed at 11, w/ EPAP relief (Flex)

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palerider
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Re: Assistance requested re: SH leak data

Post by palerider » Sun Mar 13, 2016 8:27 pm

augustsilverbear wrote:palerider,
My only real question in all that rambling post was:
...given the March 11 data, can you advise if I had a leak rate for that date that is of concern?
If you have additional responses, I would appreciate it.
augustsilverbear
whether a leak is bad or not is a two pronged issue.

1) are they disturbing your sleep?

2) are they bad enough that they compromise the machine's ability to determine the type of events you're having.

for the first, you'll have to answer that.

for the second, it depends on what kind of machine you have, for resmeds, it's over 24lpm excess leak. for your machine, it's when the machine flags "large leak" and that shows up on the chart.

since there are no large leaks flagged on the chart, the answer to your question is "no".

if you'd like more explanation or anything, feel free to ask

_________________
Mask: Bleep DreamPort CPAP Mask Solution
Additional Comments: S9 VPAP Auto
Get OSCAR

Accounts to put on the foe list: dataq1, clownbell, gearchange, lynninnj, mper!?, DreamDiver, Geer1, almostadoctor, sleepgeek, ajack, stom, mogy, D.H., They often post misleading, timewasting stuff.

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robysue
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Re: Assistance requested re: SH leak data

Post by robysue » Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:15 pm

augustsilverbear wrote: The Guide of which I spoke is NOT the Phillips Respironics Dream Station Guide. It is the Beginner’s Guide to Sleepyhead. I applied the language it used regarding PR Series 60, System One machines when determining Large Leak rates at >80L/min for the purpose of applying a Red Line option setting in SH Preferences. I made an assumption that perhaps that same logic applied to the Dream Station machine, causing me to set that leak rate in Preferences.
OK, the 80 L/min estimate for when a Large Leak is likely to be scored comes from Pugsy and is based on her analyzing hundreds of leak graphs posted here at cpaptalk.
My only real question in all that rambling post was:
...given the March 11 data, can you advise if I had a leak rate for that date that is of concern?

You responded:
"But whether the leaks are large enough to be scored as Large Leaks is only part of the picture. You are leaking at a rate that's between 17 and 33 L/min above the expected leak rate for at least 50% of the night. That's enough to cause fragmented sleep. And anything that disrupts your sleep is important enough to address. In other words, if you can figure out a way to reduce the leaks to the point where the Median Total Leak Rate is closer to 30-35 L/min and the Median Leak Rate is closer to 0-5 L/min, you may find that you are a lot less restless during the night. And that will probably improve your AHI as well as how you feel when you wake up."


I have one additional question from your response.
Please help me understand how you came to the calculation below:

"You are leaking at a rate that's between 17 and 33 L/min above the expected leak rate for at least 50% of the night."
Your Median Total Leak number shown in SleepyHead is 47 L/min, which means that your Total Leak Rate was at or below 47 L/min for 50% of the night and at or above 47% for 50% of the night. And your expected leak rate is about 30 L/min. Hence for at least 50% of the night your unintentional leak rate was at least
  • 47 L/min - 30 L/min = 17 L/min
Also note that SH reports your Median Leak Rate = 17 L/min. SH uses "Leak Rate" to denote the estimated unintentional leak rate. The SH Leak Rate should always be pretty close to your Total Leak Rate - the expected leak rate for your mask.

We know that your unintentional leak rate is always less than or equal to 33 L/min because the max SH Leak Rate is 33 L/min. Technically speaking, your maximum unintentional leak rate might be as much as
  • Max Total Leak Rate - estimated leak rate = 65 L/min - 30 L/min = 35 L/min
which is close enough to the SH reported Max Leak Rate = 33 L/min. (That small discrepancy is probably due to the fact that your expected leak rate may be as much as 32 L/min at your max pressure, and 65 - 32 = 33.)

_________________
Machine: DreamStation BiPAP® Auto Machine
Mask: Swift™ FX Nasal Pillow CPAP Mask with Headgear
Additional Comments: PR System DreamStation and Humidifier. Max IPAP = 9, Min EPAP=4, Rise time setting = 3, minPS = 3, maxPS=5

augustsilverbear
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Re: Assistance requested re: SH leak data

Post by augustsilverbear » Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:59 am

robysue,
Thanks again for your knowledgeable and insightful response. I am learning a great deal with your help.
augustsilverbear

_________________
Machine: DreamStation Auto CPAP Machine
Mask: Amara View Full Face CPAP Mask with Headgear
Humidifier: DreamStation Heated Humidifier
Additional Comments: Pico Nasal Mask with headgear,Mirage Quattro FF with headgear, ResMed chin strap, Pressure: fixed at 11, w/ EPAP relief (Flex)