Camping and Power

[GapperJ]

Long time lurker, first time post. I have been using CPAP or APAP for 9 years now, have had 3 machines. I am an amateur astronomer for about 20 years now, and at times I go camping/observing for between an overnight trip, to 2 to 3 days and about once a year, for 5 days. I am looking for advice on camping and using my CPAP out there. I currently have two systems, a PR System One with the heated humidified (yes, I know the humidifier stays home) and an IntelliPAP Auto Adjust Travel Machine with SmartFlex. I would like to take the IntelliPAP with me when I go out into the boonies and need a power source. I know I could hook it into my Outback but not sure I want to risk that where I go (sometimes it is just me and me alone out there). I am leaning to the C100 Battery system with cables, a 150w inverter to hook up the battery to the car's 12v and charge the battery if I needed (then start the car and let the alternator do its thing or carry a spare battery with me to be safe or a jumper system I have that works well).

So thoughts on the C100 system for camping and powering the IntelliPAP or the PR One for that matter. Is there another system that would work? Anything besides the two items mentioned I should look at? A second battery if the boss (wife) approves? Thanks in advance for your input.

[Pugsy]

There are many, many camping/battery use threads so you might do a forum search and read up on the various options.
I saved this one in particular because of the battery that JohnO talks about (I think page 2 or 3 was his starting comments)....I have always thought if I was going to be camping very often and in need of a battery I would get the one that JohnO used since I have a 60 series BiPap.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=86960&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=battery

or this very recent thread
viewtopic/t103170/Backpacking-Hiking-an ... t-Pro.html

[BobHale]

I use an OW-12-C266 battery that runs my Intellipap for 3 to 4 nights.
Even thought the humidifier is not heated using 12 volts I find having water in it helps.

[STL Mark]

Another interesting option for multiple day stays is the Honda generator. At about the weight and size of two 12 packs of soda they are portable and light weight. They offer a protected circuit that will not harm your electronic items. The EU1000 runs about $800 but can also be rented at Home Depot stores that have tool rental in my neighborhood. Both the eu1000 and eu2000 series are very quiet units. Don't settle for look alike units to the Honda.

[CapnLoki]

It sounds like you're "car camping" and willing to forgo the humidifier. In this case you have no need of compromising on the pump - bring whichever one you like the best. For travel I bought a duplicate of my PRS1 560 so I know the therapy is exactly the same as I have at home, plus I have a drop-in backup. The 560 is only a pound or so heavier than the lightest travel pump and not that much bigger. Recently I packed it in a "under the seat" mini carry-on with all my clothes for a two day trip.

The C100 battery is OK - It provides 100 Watt-hours, which is about 8 Amp-hours. This turns out to be the airline limit for carry-on Lithium, so you'll find a few other possible batteries of this size. The problem is that at $300 its very expensive and there are much better options if you don't mind carrying some extra weight. My system has a 35 Amp-hour battery - three times the capacity of any of the Lithium "portable power packs" and at 25 pounds its "luggable" for a short distance. You don't mention the pressure you run at, but I use 4 amp-hours a night at pressure 9 so I can get five nights off the battery and have plenty to spare to charge cell phones, etc. The chemistry is the same as a car battery, so It can be charged from a running car relatively quickly -half an hour would recover a night's use. The cost of the battery is $60; total cost with charger, cables, and box is under $150.
viewtopic.php?t=102775
You can also super-size this with a larger AGM battery for more power, or simply carry a second pre-charged 35 amp-hour battery.

Be careful using your car battery - it isn't designed for deep discharge so the wear it incurs with even a night's use isn't worth it. If you ran several nights (or one with a humidifier) you might find it won't start the car in the morning. Any discharge that even comes close to draining a starting battery is doing permanent damage. Also, using the car battery to charge the C100 through an inverter is worse, because the inverter efficiency is only 60% and the C100 takes a long time to fully charge. You mention taking a second battery or jumpstarter as a backup; why not just bring a proper deep cycle battery to begin with and use that as your primary power source? My battery is essentially the same as a what's in a jumpstarter, but twice as large.

A Honda genset is certainly a handy gadget - I have one as my "final backup" - but its not cost effective for this application, not would I want to run it all night. (And you end up with one more gas engine to maintain.)

[GapperJ]

CapnLoki,

I think your setup is the best for me. I run at a pressure of 12 if I remember right. Yes, I am doing car camping so no backpacking with this or anything like that. I do my camping/astronomy thing year round but the seasons for camping are summer, fall and spring (winter with standard time I can start observing around 6pm and be done by 11pm or 12pm so then I simply come home MOST of the time. If I camp over it is for only one night). Yeah, I don't think I will run the CPAP off the car, but I do think if I am out for multiple nights I will recharge via the car. I am going to order your set up later today as a battery that size is nothing in terms of weight. I have the room behind the passenger seat and I believe from the math that I'll get all the sleep I need using the machine with what you recommend. Thanks!

[archangle]

You need something about the size and weight of a car battery for multiple nights of CPAP.

Be careful about the idea that you'll recharge from the car during the day. You might have to run the engine for several hours if you want to do this.

The main advantage of AGM/gel cell or similar batteries is that they are non-spillable.

Even a deep cycle battery may not be worth the extra cost. Even a normal car starter battery will take a few dozen deep discharge cycles before it dies. If it's only an occasional backup use, you may not get any longer life from the deep cycle battery. Expect any battery pack to die after 5-7 years, if not sooner.

If you run it off the car battery, the big risk is that you'll end up with a dead car battery and won't be able to get it started.

[CapnLoki]

You need something about the size and weight of a car battery for multiple nights of CPAP.

Absolutely False. If you forgo humidity/heated hose, usage drops to under under 8 Amp-hours per night. Mine (560 at pressure 9) is 4 Amp-hours. There are many choices for batteries that can handle 2-5 nights at this rate that are under half the weight of a car battery.

Be careful about the idea that you'll recharge from the car during the day. You might have to run the engine for several hours if you want to do this.

Yes, using the car battery is generally bad, but if you do, run it immediately the next morning to recharge. If you don't use humidity, it will recharge fairly quickly as long as you rev the engine a bit. At idle, the regulator probably doesn't turn on the alternator.

A problem with starting batteries is that they have trouble putting out full current even discharged only 30%, which is about what you'd use with full humidity. Thus, even one night could mean that an older battery will fail to start the car. Anytime a starting battery is discharged enough to have trouble starting the car, the capacity of the battery has been degraded.

The main advantage of AGM/gel cell or similar batteries is that they are non-spillable.

True, but this is a huge advantage when you're carrying the battery around. In addition, AGM's have a low self-discharge, meaning they can be left on the shelf for several months and still have a reasonable charge. Also, as long as you don't overcharge, they don't emit any any gas and are safe for indoor use.

Even a deep cycle battery may not be worth the extra cost. Even a normal car starter battery will take a few dozen deep discharge cycles before it dies. If it's only an occasional backup use, you may not get any longer life from the deep cycle battery. Expect any battery pack to die after 5-7 years, if not sooner.

Its true that if its never used, a starting battery is just as good as a deep cycle. But if its used even a few times a year, a starting battery will only last a few years in a deep cycle application, while a deep cycle will be going strong at 5 years. My current battery bank on my boat is still strong after 5 years - it probably has a few more to go. But it gets about 50-100 cycles a year.

Another way to look at this is that a deep cycle battery can be used as a starting battery - most jump starters have a 18-20 Amp-hour deep cycle battery inside - but a starting battery makes a bad deep cycle. The only time it makes sense to have a starting battery as a backup is if you already have an old one that still has some life in it. Since the cost of a cheap starting battery is the same as a quality AGM deep cycle (albeit smaller), why not have the proper battery?

If you run it off the car battery, the big risk is that you'll end up with a dead car battery and won't be able to get it started.

Quite true. But since its cheap to get a small AGM battery and toss in the trunk, there really isn't any need to ever to use the starting battery. I was perplexed by a recent thread where a truck driver kept saying it was a big problem to use a CPAP because they weren't allowed to run it off the battery. A small AGM would handle their nightly needs and would quickly recharge off the engine during the day.

One other point about charging - it can take a long time to top off a deep cycle battery. Above 80%, the charge rate slows to the point where it not worth trying unless you can leave it on a charger overnight. The typical protocol for boaters and RV'ers is to discharge to 50%, then charge to 80%. In other words, its not worth charging with the car if the drain was under 20% - you might as well wait a day or two until the discharge is higher. This does not apply to the car's starting battery, which is designed for high discharge/charge rate. It should be topped off early and often.

And yet another point - Battery Tender sells a cigarette lighter plug for charging a car battery through the socket - its very handy, but it means that the quick connect plug is wired as "charge receiver," not a "charge source." If you connect this to an external battery to charge from the car, the plugs will be Hot to Ground and fuses will blow (hopefully) immediately. If you want to an external battery though the socket you'll have to wire up a reversed plug - I can show you how to do this in a few minutes.

[GapperJ]

I ordered two U1 Wheelchair Scooter Battery Batteries 12v 35 Ah; the NOCO ISCC2 5-Way SAE Adapter Connector; the Deltran Battery Tender Plus (021-0128) 1.25 Amp Battery Charge for shorter recharge times when home (I'll charge the batteries after the trip so they are ready to go if I need them and then I'll check them before leaving on a trip); two Quickbox 120170 Group U1 Battery Box to hold the batteries; two Battery Tender 081-0069-8 Female Cigarette Adaptor for Quick Disconnect, and extra fuses for the Tender. Since I only need from overnight (I figure the on Scooter Battery will handle that just fine) and I will not be using the humidifier or heated tube I should be able to get more than one night out of them, when I go for two nights. For those two or three trips when I may go for 3 to 5 days, I figure charging and having both batteries ready to go is a better option than charging from the car. I won't charge from the car that way the car is ready to go when I need it. I think that is the right step up and will serve me well for the next 4 to 5 years I hope.

I don't believe I need a deep cycle battery here. I think the ones recommended and that I purchase will do the job just fine. I will probably use them in the ventilated tent.

[archangle]

You need something about the size and weight of a car battery for multiple nights of CPAP.

Absolutely False. If you forgo humidity/heated hose, usage drops to under under 8 Amp-hours per night. Mine (560 at pressure 9) is 4 Amp-hours. There are many choices for batteries that can handle 2-5 nights at this rate that are under half the weight of a car battery.

Easy to say that. Many people have found otherwise to their dismay. Do your calculations, add a comfortable safety margin, and then try it at home before your trip.

Even a deep cycle battery may not be worth the extra cost. Even a normal car starter battery will take a few dozen deep discharge cycles before it dies. If it's only an occasional backup use, you may not get any longer life from the deep cycle battery. Expect any battery pack to die after 5-7 years, if not sooner.

Its true that if its never used, a starting battery is just as good as a deep cycle. But if its used even a few times a year, a starting battery will only last a few years in a deep cycle application, while a deep cycle will be going strong at 5 years. My current battery bank on my boat is still strong after 5 years - it probably has a few more to go. But it gets about 50-100 cycles a year.[/quote]

In theory, you get 30 or more DEEP discharges on a starting battery before it fails. If you're using it as a home emergency backup or for an occasional camping trip, you may not get many DEEP discharge cycles before it needs replacement due to age. I've had lots of car batteries last for 5 or more years in the car, despite occasional incidents of leaving the lights on or otherwise deep discharging them.

Don't forget that, even if not abused, or even used, lead acid batteries tend to die at about 5-7 years.

Remember, it's only deep discharges that seriously hurt the battery life. If you use the CPAP on it for just one night, you probably haven't stressed a starting battery at all.

However, deep cycle batteries are somewhat better if the effective cost difference to you isn't that high.