Help with Zeo Bedside Unit

[Slaphappy]

Yes, she remembered being up during that time (chest cold actually with the Nyquil wearing off about then). So her readings were pretty accurate.

However back on my head last night and the readings weren't really better. I did get a better defined period of deep sleep than the previous readings, but other than that it still started me right off in REM sleep. This was with the s+ unit turned off, and the phone elsewhere (just in case). There's no other devices nearby.

It's so weird because I watched hers the first couple of cycles on the bedside unit and correctly showed her as awake. I watched mine go immediately into REM sleep. I can't figure out what else besides my head could be the x-factor here. The unit was pretty much the same distance away, maybe even a little closer.

I loosened it a little later in the night, and that's probably why there's a gap. I wondered if maybe it was possible to actually have it on too tight.

[Jay Aitchsee]

Well, it would seem that in your case, Zeo can not distinguish between Wake and REM and scores both as REM. This could be related to the REM disorder previously mentioned, but I don't have enough knowledge of the disorder or the Zeo algorithm to do more than guess that it does.

Actually to me, except for the lack of wake, your hypnogram looks pretty good with just the percentages of REM and Deep perhaps slightly higher than norm, but falling in approximately the normal cyclical relationship. Only the immediate entry into REM seems to be atypical.

Perhaps, someone else following the thread has some ideas?

[Jay Aitchsee]

Here is an example of Wake and REM EEG waveforms, perhaps not the best, but I think it shows why Zeo might have some trouble differentiating between the two with only a single channel.

A question you might want to pursue is, "Why do your wake waves look more like REM to Zeo than the wake waves of other people (your wife's for example)?" Perhaps, working with your doctor, a reexamination of of your previous sleep study EEG's looking for abnormalities in wake is in order.

[Slaphappy]

That is an interesting angle. I had thought about that but not in the context of how Zeo captures wave data as opposed to a normal sleep study.

Although honestly I don't think any of the doctors I saw ever looked at anything other than the hypnogram. Any time I've considered something like this always considered it more of a university type of research. Maybe I never found the right doctors, but the ones I saw didn't know what to past sleep apnea and Ambien.

I had wondered if there ways to actually get the wave data from the device, but it seems to be processed onboard the bedside unit. I'm not sure if there's a way to get the waveforms unless you intercept it from the headband.

[Jay Aitchsee]

Yes, for sure, you would need a doctor other than the ordinary sleep certified pulmonologist. I'm thinking a neurologist with a strong background in sleep science - could be hard to find, alright. One problem is the science is so young. IIRC, REM wasn't even defined until the 1950's.
You can capture the raw data from the Zeo. I haven't done it, but at least one forum member, MaxDarkside, has. See his blog here. Also, see my Resources Page here. Even though it is possible to capture the waveforms, I think professional help would still be needed to gather anything meaningful from them. As you mentioned, a university medical center could be a good resource to have an EEG done and interpreted.

[Slaphappy]

Thanks for the links. I'll have to check it out and see if I can hijack my Zeo for any meaningful results.

From experience, it is very difficult to find a doctor that is trained for these things and is willing to take the time and interest to dig a little deeper. Most of that experience deals with migraines, another area of hit/miss treatments. However from my attempts at finding a sleep doctor I found the same general approach.

Not that I blame them. Both are difficult areas, and once you get past the treatments that work for most it's a lot of guess work. However there's not one doctor that can 'do it all'. The neuro can handle migraines, but wants you to see a psych for sleep or underlying issues, who then wants you to see a sleep doctor for potential apnea, who wants you to see an ENT for allergies or obstructions in the nasal passages...On and on it goes. Then they all want to see you quarterly. Finally I'd had enough.

I even took some Neuroscience classes to work toward a Master's with the thought of combining that with my EE degree and moving into that field of research. Got sidetracked when our first child came along, but I learned enough to have a working knowledge and where the limits of medical science were. Overall, it's pretty fascinating stuff.

Anyway... probably more info than you care about, but from that I found more intellectual curiosity about why stuff happened from university folks than I did from most of the doctors that I saw. I keep hoping to stumble across a 'do it all' doctor, but I haven't found that person yet.

[Jay Aitchsee]

Unfortunately, I have to agree with your comments regarding doctors. With your background and training, you might be the best suited to investigate your particular condition further. A thesis in the making?
Here are a few more items that might interest you:
Zeo talking about accuracy: Behind the Headband..., a couple more still exist on YouTube.
Papers on Zeo Accuracy: Assesment of Wireless... and Validation of Wireless...
A paper on using a single channel EEG to detect arousals which could be informative, but I've only read the abstract and this one describing a single channel REM detection algorithm.
I think MaxDarkside's work with Zeo is interesting. He doesn't visit the forum much anymore, but I think you can still reach him by PM if you have questions.
I am curious to learn of your progress. Please continue to post your results and findings.
Jay

[Slaphappy]

Would definitely be an interesting area, but I had a long way to go before worrying about thesis prep. Plus I realized that most people who study sleep issues have to stay up at night, and my sleep issues were bad enough as it is

Thanks for the links... some really cool stuff there. I wish I had more time to put into research and will circle back around as often as possible. Plus still working out some of the other monitoring ideas you have mentioned earlier in the thread.

[Sir NoddinOff]

I even took some Neuroscience classes to work toward a Master's with the thought of combining that with my EE degree and moving into that field of research. Got sidetracked when our first child came along, but I learned enough to have a working knowledge and where the limits of medical science were. Overall, it's pretty fascinating stuff.

Anyway... probably more info than you care about, but from that I found more intellectual curiosity about why stuff happened from university folks than I did from most of the doctors that I saw. I keep hoping to stumble across a 'do it all' doctor, but I haven't found that person yet.

Thanks for bringing that up. Yes, sometimes I think that we are in such early days of sleep science that the further reaches are the realm of 'dark arts'! A few of my friends in the medical profession have hinted at that after a couple of glasses of wine, however it's rare to find a medical doctor who will lay it all out.

[Jay Aitchsee]

Slaphappy, here's an old thread that has a little Zeo technical information along with an example of some of my earlier chart work buried in it which I think you may find interesting. Note the contributor, deltadave, is the sleep professional currently known as Morbius. He makes an oblique reference to genetic testing, HLA-DQB, which is apparently associated with narcolepsy. Not that you have narcolepsy, but rapid onset REM and disturbed sleep are symptoms shared with REM behavior disorder. Could be another avenue of exploration.