ZEO users: How well does ZEO data predict daytime function?

[SleepingUgly]

ZEO users with some EDS: How well does your ZEO data predict your EDS/lack of EDS? If you didn't look at your ZEO data but merely gave it to someone else, how well would they be able to predict your daytime functioning/EDS?

I hope my question is clear.

[Jay Aitchsee]

Mine seems to be pretty close. Without going into the scoring, it is rare that I have a low Zeo score and feel good. Higher scores usually mean I will feel much better. Two variables that go into the Zeo score, deep sleep, and awake time correlate well in the manner you would think. REM, not so much. But then, my REM as reported by Zeo is fairly consistent.
A fault of the Zeo scoring method is that total sleep time makes up a major portion of the score, so that a high score could be misleading. For example, if one slept for 10 hours or so devoid of deep and REM, they would achieve a fairly high score based on the 10 hours, but would probably feel like crap.
Overall, my Zeo reports are consistent with past PSG's and match well with my ResScan, video, and Oximeter data. I feel Zeo offers a fairly reliable objective measure of the quality of a night's sleep which is then a pretty good prediction of the following day.
Two examples: Yesterday my Zeo sore was 55 (low) and I felt lousy, really dragging. This morning, my score was 65 (still on the low side), but I feel a lot better. Been able to work on my taxes which I couldn't do yesterday. If get a score in the 70's, generally I will feel good, able to function fairly well.

Jay

[patrissimo]

Well, I have some good data on this, since I have subjective sleep quality & daytime energy tracked along with Zeo data for some months.

One correction I'd make to what Jay said is that he seems to be assuming using the ZQ score, which is well known to be crap because it overweights sleep quantity over quality. We don't have to use the ZQ score: we have access to the sleep stage %ages as well as total sleep , # of awakenings, etc.

The basic answer, for me at least, is that there is not much correlation between my Zeo data and subjective sleep quality, at least using the 5 weeks of data since I started CPAP (I'd have to do some extra data munging to make calculations on what I tracked before CPAP too). I have substantial correlation between Zeo & CPAP data (ie my REM goes down when my AHI goes up, I get more Deep + REM when my pressure is higher, etc). But there is little correlation between Zeo REM %, Deep %, total min, awakenings and my 1-5 scores of "subjective sleep quality", and "next day's energy". I seem to feel a little better if I sleep longer and wake up less times, but I feel worse when I get more REM. But I'd need months more data for any of this to be statistically significant.

Of course, given that I have unexplained EDS that is persisting despite CPAP treatment, perhaps this isn't surprising. "No correlation" is another way of saying "I feel tired every day and I don't know why."

One thing I'll point out is that if our EDS is caused by accumulated fatigue, then it shouldn't change very much based on any one night's sleep, so we shouldn't expect to see a big correlation. For example, my day energy scores are always between 1.25 and 2.5 and out of 5 - not much variation to work with. And there's zero correlation between my subjective sleep quality and my next day's energy, which is pretty wacky and disturbing.

To me it's an open question whether to focus on these subjective scores, or on the CPAP/Zeo data. The latter are much more precise and variable and objective, and I'm able to see effects of things I do. But my real goal is not good numbers, it's feeling good. For now I'm working with the assumption that whatever the CPAP/Zeo are seeing (AHI, FL, REM/Deep) is something that will over time affect my subjective fatigue if I'm patient. But if I spend months on CPAP with good numbers that I can't improve any more and I still don't feel good...then I'd probably give up on those numbers.

Sorry for the rambliness, I hoped to have something more definite to say, but my subjective ratings of sleep and energy just don't seem to match up with anything objective . Biggest effect I can have on my daytime energy is to take provigil...

[blueh2o]

That's it. I'm gettting a Zeo so I can track crazy statistics like you guys. Is there a Zeo model you guys recommend?
Currently, like Patri I have my own spreadsheet that tracks my subjective energy levels. My scale is 1-8 (under the assumption that with 8 hours of good sleep I should feel 100%). I'm always stuck between 3.5-4.0 with only rare exceptions to that. Since I'm currently not using xPAp, I'm using the TAP Elite, I can't track my AHI so have no idea what that's like but it was running consistently around 1.0 on the Resmed S9 when I was using it so that number didn't seem to change much. Since I wake up on the average of 6-10 times a night I'm pretty darn sure I don't get much deep sleep but I guess that's what Zeo would confirm for me. I've even felt some central apneas creeping back on me this week which is disconcerting (started my journey with complex apnea).
Back to the subject. Do you have recommendations for a Zeo model or anything I should know prior to purchasing one?

[cosmo]

Get the zeo bedside. You can check out your numbers right on the unit itself.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Zeo---Zeo-S ... Id=1514379

[cosmo]

I had decent numbers yesterday and my stages were nice solid blocks. A little over 1 AHI from my apap.

My day is good so far.

[edm_msu]

I'm using the TAP Elite, I can't track my AHI so have no idea what that's like but it was running consistently around 1.0 on the Resmed S9 when I was using it so that number didn't seem to change much.

What do you think about using an oximeter to track your blood oxygen since you aren't tracking AHI's?

[Jay Aitchsee]

I also recommend the Zeo Bedside model.

Check the links in my signature and these for some more "analysis" work.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=85888&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p781664
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=85585&st=0&sk=t&sd=a#p778673


J

[patrissimo]

I use the Zeo Pro that talks to a smartphone (iOS or Android). That way my data gets uploaded automatically, and I don't have an extra device on my bedside. I had the original Zeo bedside, and the smart card got corrupted before I transferred the data off, lost months of data and was bummed.

People do have problems with the bluetooth link on the Zeo Pro sometimes, there are a lot of unhappy reviewers on Amazon, but it has worked fine for me. I had to reset it and relink it a couple times early on. I'm sure the bedside model is more reliable, it's just more space & effort.

[Jay Aitchsee]

Another advantage of the Bedside is that it can be configured so that you can read the data directly on your PC without the website if your wish. See https://www.cpaptalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72950

Patri, I don't understand. If you had been using your Zeo and uploading to the website, then all that you had uploaded was (and is) available for download through their export function. If you lost "months" of data, it means you had been using your Zeo for months without uploading and looking at it. I suppose you could have just been looking at the bedside display, but that seems to have been letting a lot of the Zeo features go to waste, like being able to track trends and reviewing data more than 7 sessions old.

[patrissimo]

Patri, I don't understand. If you had been using your Zeo and uploading to the website, then all that you had uploaded was (and is) available for download through their export function. If you lost "months" of data, it means you had been using your Zeo for months without uploading and looking at it. I suppose you could have just been looking at the bedside display, but that seems to have been letting a lot of the Zeo features go to waste, like being able to track trends and reviewing data more than 7 sessions old.

Yes, I'd been using the Zeo bedside for months to collect data (without using it yet, other than manual review each morning), while also tracking medications, breathe-rite strips, and other interventions in a spreadsheet. When I finally went to transfer the data from the SD card, so I could do some statistical analysis comparing my interventions to my Zeo data, the SD card was corrupted.

[Jay Aitchsee]

ZEO users with some EDS: How well does your ZEO data predict your EDS/lack of EDS? If you didn't look at your ZEO data but merely gave it to someone else, how well would they be able to predict your daytime functioning/EDS?

Surely, there are others that could offer input here. What about it Zeo users, how well does your Zeo predict the following day in terms of EDS, function, etc? I'm curious, too.

[DocWeezy]

I've been using Zeo now for about 2 years...they were still a very new company when I got my first one.

For me, the critical score to look at is how much actual deep and REM sleep I get (not a percentage of a whole--how many minutes). It is now very consistent: most nights I'm over an hour on each one. If I can get a little over an hour of REM and the same of deep sleep, then I'm functional the next day.

However, on the rare occasions when I get a high Zeo score (i.e., 75 or above), I'm so full of energy I hardly know what to do. It's fabulous! Interestingly, my REM and deep sleep amounts are usually about the same, but I get more light sleep and my overall sleep was less fragmented.

I'm still trying to figure out how to consistently get good scores and how to expand my "normal" (but minimal) 6 to 6.5 hours a night to a solid 7 or 7.5 hours night of sleep. I'd be in heaven if I could do that, but so far it's eluding me.

Bottom line: for me, my Zeo score does seem to correlate with how I feel the next day, although the key pieces of information are really how much REM and deep sleep I get. I have had the rare night where I got 7 or more hours of sleep, but with less than an hour each of REM and deep and I never feel very good the following day.

I have also discovered what drugs really kill my REM and deep sleep--even ibuprophen causes problems! Any sleeping pill causes problems after 1 or 2 nights; Tylenol is awful; aspirin isn't too bad if I don't take it for more than a couple nights at a time.

I love my Zeo! Without it, I never would have discovered that I was initially getting less than 15 minutes of deep sleep and pretty much no REM at all. Fortunately, I was able to figure those out and fix them. Life definitely got better after that, but I still need more sleep even though I'm doing better than I have in decades. It also helps my husband--he can look at a score and if its below 65, he knows that I'm not feeling great and knows to tread lightly!

Weezy

[Bobby269]

Zeo doesn't even offer chat support anymore. But i was lucky that I bought my bedside unit from Best buy with a 2 year warranty. If something goes wrong they will replace it with no hassle.

Last night in answer to a email question I was told that their web site would now be self help. Which would be improved by our questions.

[patrissimo]

I'm glad to hear that others find Zeo data matches up with their subjective experience. My sleep doctor thinks the Zeo is junk, but I think he's somewhat biased. And I do find significant correlation of Zeo with my AHI (AHI up, Deep + REM down), so I think the Zeo is measuring something objective and meaningful, even though it doesn't correlate with my subjective ratings.

My current sleep doc says that fragmentation is very important, and not only not measured by the Zeo, but not measured by most sleep labs during PSGs. He's working with researchers at Harvard to study it, but he didn't say exactly what metric they were looking at, just that it's different from sleep stages.