REM deprivation??

[Denial Dave]

My sleep doc doesn't believe in the theory of sleep debt in respect to OSA sleep apnea.

She believes that we are REM deprived and part of acclimation process of CPAP is getting our brain & bodies accustomed to reaching REM after being deprived of it.

Any thoughts?

[Guest]

All you have to do is Google "sleep debt" and see how many links there are. If it didn't exist, there would be virtually nothing to find. Or, at least articles to debunk it.

It's hard telling where some of these doctors come up with their ways of thinking.

I'd say make up your own mind from the evidence you can find.

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[Guest]

You might want to do another Google search on "rem deprivation" and read some of those links, too.

The first one is kind of interesting. It's from macalester . edu. It discusses a study done by William Dement (who pioneered many sleep and OSA studies). I thought this part was interesting. We've often discussed on the forum that (according to other articles) dreams can occur in almost any sleep stage.

"We now know that REM deprivation and dream deprivation are not synonymous. All REM periods do not yield reports of dreams, while some NREM periods do. Thus, dreams do not occur exclusively in REM."

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[archangle]

My sleep doc doesn't believe in the theory of sleep debt in respect to OSA sleep apnea.

She believes that we are REM deprived and part of acclimation process of CPAP is getting our brain & bodies accustomed to reaching REM after being deprived of it.

Any thoughts?

Potayto potahto.

Some people seem to have extra tiredness after starting CPAP, even if the therapy is "working" in terms of AHI, etc. It usually goes away after doing CPAP correctly for a while.

Me, I think it may well be "withdrawal" from the chemical/hormone/adaptation effects of apnea, sort of like stopping drinking, smoking, or some drugs.

Unless one theory vs. another gives you a better idea of how to prevent or reduce the "sleep debt," who really cares?

Does anyone have any tricks for reducing it, other than just "Suck it up Buttercup (SUIB)" and wait for it to pass? It would be really good if someone found some sort of pill or getting more sleep to reduce the problem, but I haven't heard of any good ideas.

So far the only useful suggestions I've heard are:

1) Fully data capable machine.
2) Monitoring the results.
3) Solve any problems you find.
4) Tinker with the settings to see if it gets better.
5) Suck it up, Buttercup, it usually gets better in a few weeks.

[StuUnderPressure]

I read a study eons ago from a reputable source (no way to find it again) that there was no such thing as Sleep Debt.

That has always seemed to be correct (at least in my life / sleep).

Even pre-CPAP when I was dog tired, trying to sleep 15 hours straight just did not seem to do anything to help me "catch up" on my sleep.

At the titration night (2nd night of a 2 night sleep study), sleeping with CPAP gave me instant relief from my tiredness. It didn't take 4 days, 4 weeks, or 4 months for me to catch up on that so called sleep debt (if it existed).

A couple of weeks ago I was up 21 hours straight & was dog tired from it.

After sleeping just 1 night (approx 7.5 hours), I was as good as new.

[mamagoober]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708751/

This episode of Star Trek was never far from my mind as I watched my husband deteriorate more and more with the passing months from suspicion of apnea to machine in our home.

Review from IMDB:

The Enterprise comes upon another Star Fleet vessel drifting in space. They find that the crew has killed each other off and there is only one survivor, a Betazoid crew member. Deanna tries to communicate with the Betazoid crew member to find out what happened. The Enterprise crew then starts to exhibit the same problems that the other ship experienced. Humans appear to be not be able to have deep sleep (REM)anymore. Only Data, the android, and Deanna, the Betazoid, are immune to the loss of deep sleep. Deanna and Data become the only crew members who can work to find out how to get out of the situation. The scariest moment of the episode is when Doctor Crusher is working in a room with the dead victims from the other ship. With her lack of REM sleep, she hallucinates that all of the corpses all of sudden sit upright on the tables that they are laying on.



I know this doesn't answer your question as to whether it is sleep debt or REM deprivation, but it sure is SOMETHING that slowly drives you insane.

[stage0]

I have seen too much REM - rebound to even think that sleep debt does not occur. The longest REM stage was for 90 minutes...after cpap was correctly titrated.

[Darth Vader Face]

EYES! In the DARK! One moon circles.
Yeah, that actually kind of sounds like a description of my CPAP machine.