Our ancestor's two separate sleep stages - Ahhh, retirement?

[Sir NoddinOff]

Edit: Okay folks, don't send me 'hater posts' , but I'm adding the term "retirement" to the subject line cuz I can see where this thread is going! Fasten your seatbelts

For this discussion please read this post: viewtopic/t80633/Did-You-Know--.html

So according to this article, our ancestors slept a few hours (defined as stage one), then banked the fire, scratched a few fleas, maybe got it on, then went back to sleep for another several hours (defined as stage two). There seems to be supporting evidence evidence in the anthropological record and in medieval literature to support this concept. (this topic of this thread was explored here a few years ago, or so I hear)

Sometimes when I'm stressed or having sleep problems, I do practice this two stage sleep technique.. Well I don't scratch fleas and bank the fire, however do I pull out a really boring book which I keep handy for just such occasions. Usually within half an hour I'm ready to drift off again. If that doesn't work, I'll maybe get up, pet the cat or get on CPAPtalk.

So, my question is? Am I totally wrong doing this? Peer pressure on this site, in the sleep labs and in general sez this is bad idea (even turning on a light is verboten). So, I guess conventional wisdom tells me I have to conk out for eight straight hours with only one 3 minute pee break to achieve a good night's sleep. I trust you see my problem here? Any other thoughts on this? Could our collective modern sleep knowledge be so far off base? Is there room for this idea and if so, is it possible that it represents a revolution in sleep study.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot to mention. When I do this two stage sleep deal, I always feel like I'm cheating. I worry the sleep police might knock on my door at 2am and ask what's wrong!

[robysue]

If it works for you, do it.

And what I mean by "works for you" is this:

If you don't start worrying about the fact that you are not in bed and sound asleep while you are up and about doing your stuff, it's fine to keep doing what you are doing.

If you're getting back to bed and back to sleep in a timely fashion (say 30-45 minutes), it's fine to keep doing what you're doing as long as you feel you are getting enough total sleep during the night to function well in the daytime.

So if the wakes are not creating on-going and serious problems with your daytime functioning, it's fine to keep doing what you are doing.

Me personally? I'd try to resist getting on-line or watching TV---all that "blue light" can create problems with the melatonin levels. But if reading a boring book lets you relax and get sleepy enough to go back to bed with the mask on and get some more high quality sleep in a timely fashion, I'd say do it.

And for what it's worth, at some point in Sound Sleep, Sound Mind, Krakow talks about how simply admitting that you want to be awake for a while and using that time to do something pleasant, but not overly stimulating helps some people get a decent night's sleep even if it is in two (or more) major chunks.

[chunkyfrog]

It's nice to know that sometimes, waking up in the middle of the night is a natural thing to do.
Maybe it's a little gift of the time I need to run out in the garden and
grab a handful of dewy fresh cherry tomatoes for lunch.
--or let the cat in. (maybe that's why I woke up)

[Slinky]

The ONLY problem I see w/this two stage sleep is .... you guessed it: MOST of us have to work for a living to support ourselves and/or family and employers are NOT sympathetic to the issue at all. Your starting time is xxxx and if you aren't here at that time you aren't long for this job. Kapiche??

[chunkyfrog]

I know there is a possibility I won't sleep straight through.
Gotta let hubby watch Craig Ferguson alone--I hate that!

[Sir NoddinOff]

MOST of us have to work for a living to support ourselves and/or family and employers are NOT sympathetic to the issue at all.

Edit: Okay folks, don't send me 'hater posts' , but I'm adding the term "retirement" to the subject line cuz I can see where this thread is going! Fasten your seatbelts

Yeah, I hear you Slinky and you have my sympathy. Unfortunately I didn't fall out of the womb and immediately go into retirement.

Tho I'm comfortably retired now, I think my original OSA stemmed a lot from being forced to get up at 4:30am (too %@*&+ early!) to go into the food processing plant and get the machines up and running. For a long time I was working up to 12 hour days. It's just so difficult to get to sleep early enough to make that work - kids need help with homework, there's cleaning up to do, then there's the time you need to spend with family. I was lucky in that I had a sympathetic wife and kids!!! I don't know how old you are Slinky, but I highly recommend retirement if you can swing it! (That's whole 'nother thread) Using CPAP every night, all night, is a good start in 'going the distance'.

[chunkyfrog]

Until then, it's up too early and off to the rat run for me.
(Anybody do a study on sleep deprivation's effects on rats?
--That would be just too cruel--cute little rats.)

[zoocrewphoto]

I haven't noticed a specific pattern, but then my sleep has never been set hours. I go to bed when i am ready. That could be 3 am, it could be 7am. Most nights, it is between 4am and 6am. With some rare ones early or late. On work days, I get up at 1:09pm. On days off with no need to be anywhere, I usually get up between 2 and 4 pm. It works for me.

Since starting xpap treatment, I have had two nights with no bathroom breaks, most nights with one. Prior to treatment, it was usually 2-3 times per night. I do have a tendency to go to the bathroom, come back, sit down and check email, and then go back to bed. I also sleep with the tv on. I know. This whole posts sounds like a list of what not to do, but this is what works best for me. I can't stand white noise, and without something to direct my mind, I will lay then and think about stuff without falling asleep. I have an extra hard time falling asleep in hotels since I can't sleep with the tv on. I listen to a soundtrack over and over, but I can remember being awake for half the night, so it is not successful, just better than nothing. Anyway, sometimes I get up to go to the bathroom, and I end up watching the tv for an hour or so, and then go back to sleep.

Anyway, there are some nights when I feel exhausted early, but I need to get something done. A few nights ago, I was asked to make labels that were needed in the morning. I was nodding off at the computer, so I set my time, hosed up, and went to sleep for 3 hours. The timer went off, and I got up and made the labels. Then went back to bed, no problem. I was much more alert while making the labels, and I'm sure it took less time to do since I wasn't nodding off and struggling to focus.

I also tend to set my alarm for 5am Thursday mornings so that I can get up and take the trash out, rather than taking it out at 2 or 3am. I get up, do it, and go back to sleep.

[Wonderbeastlett]

Well I'm nowhere near retirement but My husband and I do the same thing. We both for some reason have been waking up at 4am every morning. We go to bed around 11:30 and get up at 8. Its very weird we will wake up at 4 am, let the dog out, get something cool to drink, use the restroom, talk a little, let the dog back in and go back to bed! Basically its about a 15 to maybe 20 minute thing! Then we both fall back asleep and the alarm goes off at 8 every morning.
I think that break in between sets us up for another 4 hours of continued sleep. We both have been sleeping like zombies now that I'm on cpap. There's no snoring or frequent arousal's that would wake us both. So, perhaps that small time of wakefulness helps.

[BlackSpinner]

The ONLY problem I see w/this two stage sleep is .... you guessed it: MOST of us have to work for a living to support ourselves and/or family and employers are NOT sympathetic to the issue at all. Your starting time is xxxx and if you aren't here at that time you aren't long for this job. Kapiche??

For a lot of my work the last 10-15 years I worked from home, my own hours and it still didn't work for me. If I wake up at night I can't get back to sleep and feel rotten the rest of the day. Even when working totally flexible hours I had/have a very settled routine. It just works better for me.

I also have great difficulty falling asleep. It takes me hours to do so. It is not insomnia and if I get up and do things I will feel like a wreck the next day, I just don't fall asleep easily. I sort of bounce in and out of that twilight zone for 2 hours. I had a very short time of a few weeks when I started cpap when I would fall asleep as soon as the machine turned on, then that disappeared again.

[chunkyfrog]

Insomnia is still an unsolved mystery.--still a sleep disorder.
Whatever has been tried, it just doesn't work for everyone.
If you are lucky enough to find YOUR solution, wonderful.
Is this the insomnia forum, too?
I'm good with that.

[BlackSpinner]

If you are lucky enough to find YOUR solution, wonderful.
Is this the insomnia forum, too?
I'm good with that.

I learned a long, long time ago that it is a good time for daydreaming and making up stories and designing new art work. I just have to watch that I don't fall into the trap of rehashing stressful issues. If that happens and I can't break it or "wash it away" I will turn on the light and re-read some book for 1/2 hour(old Agatha Christie, Ngiao Marsh, Sayers are all good for that) .

[portiemom]

I usually fall asleep within 20 minutes of hitting the pillow, and get about 5 to 6 hours of fragmented sleep. I find that in the summer, when I am not working, I get up with the hubby after the 5 to 6 hours of sleep, return to the bed for about an hour of solid sleep and feel way better after that one hour, than I do after the 5 or 6 hours of nightly sleep. Makes no sense to me whatsoever!

[Sir NoddinOff]

[*][/u]

I will turn on the light and re-read some book for 1/2 hour(old Agatha Christie, Ngiao Marsh, Sayers are all good for that) .

Yeah, I agree. Any old style mystery is great, Christie, Sayers, Dick Francis et al. I just have to stay away from Ian Rankin, Michael Connelly, Jeffery Deaver etc. Those modern thriller writers just keep me up later than I want to be up! Sometimes if I feel tension bunching up in between my shoulder blades or in my lower back, instead of taking a painkiller, I'll slowly pace around my house in my bathrobe. It doesn't bother anyone and the soothing motion seems to put me in a receptive sleep mode after 30 to 45 minutes. If I could get one wish, it'd be that there was a switch on the side of everyone's head that was labeled: TURN WORRIES OFF Wouldn't that be great?

[Rosiemoto]

I was biphasic for a year. 3 months after starting biphasic sleep I started tanning with one of the new high pressure quartz light tanning beds. After the 4th tanning visit (and a bit after the 3rd) I had a change of thinking about, .......alcohol. Yep I think that boosting prolactin levels through biphasic sleep and boosting beta endorphins through UVA exposure might just turn out to be a treatment for addiction.

Flame away but its what I experienced. I was trying to fix my DSPS not treat addiction. Anyway for what its worth I don't tan anymore and I don't sleep biphasically anymore but I no longer drink alcohol. There was no white knuckle withdrawal either. I wrote a Dr. who is an expert on Naltrexone and he conceded that anything is possible and that what I experienced is not likely to be placebo as there was no intention or understanding that it (cessation of craving alcohol) would take place.