No N3 'slow wave sleep

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
jnk
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Re: No N3 'slow wave sleep

Post by jnk » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:57 am

kteague wrote: . . . but I doubt I'm very unique. . . .
I disagree.

You are uniquely helpful, uniquely expressive, and uniquely exemplary in how you go about what you do on this board, based on your unique experiences in life. Invaluable. All of it. Just sayin'.

Other than that, I agree with you completely, though.

raffles97
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Re: No N3 'slow wave sleep

Post by raffles97 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:29 pm

I certainly agree with compliments.

I'll have to put up my hand to not taking my med's. Had a choice years ago of taking sleeping pills or low dose of same kind of med which parkinson's patients take to calm tremors. May not make you as groggy as sleeping pills but take one and it acts much the same with mild 'move slow' in the morning.

Now I've admitted this I guess I'll be better prepared to ask the doc when we sit down to find out what if any benefit I'd get by taking them regularly. Originally I'd got the idea that taking this was primarily to stop annoying my wife with the leg lifting thing but following this forum leads me to believe that, just maybe, taking the damn meds and calming leg might get me better night sleep as well. Mind you the sleep study didn't put high number against arousals from the twitch. (TST Count of 30 and index of 5.2). Oh, on second thought a 10% better sleep could be worth the med's after all.

You might have guessed I don't like taking stuff, even the baby aspirin and lipitor insisted upon by my GP annoys me.

jnk
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Re: No N3 'slow wave sleep

Post by jnk » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:11 pm

raffles97 wrote:. . . 10 years ago . . . meeting with specialist.
If it were me, I'd probably study these to the extent that I could stand doing it:

http://www.aasmnet.org/Resources/Practi ... LSPLMD.pdf
http://www.aasmnet.org/Resources/Practi ... LSPLMD.pdf

raffles97
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Re: No N3 'slow wave sleep

Post by raffles97 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:40 pm

Oh, my but enough info to put me to sleep a few nights.

Honestly it looks extremely interesting an yes I do have Levadopa prescription in low dosage. Will try and wade through this, thank you very much.

Actually someone posted today 'Bondage for Positionally' (Challenged is my term) and I'm tempted to tie myself to the bed tonight to see what happens. Nobody else home to yell 'FIRE' as a joke so could be interesting.

jnk
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Re: No N3 'slow wave sleep

Post by jnk » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:07 pm

We are all rooting for ya.

Some key words in that pile of info, in my opinion, words that support Kathy's excellent points about one condition in relation to another, are the following:
" . . . the association between PLMS and subtle respiratory defects such as upper airway resistance syndrome has suggested that these conditions be monitored when a diagnosis of PLMD is being considered, since they may be the cause of sleep complaints by themselves. The PLMS in this situation may only be incidental associates of the respiratory disturbances. Also, excessive daytime somnolence associated with PLMS may not be due to the leg movements, but merely an associated condition, such that treatment suppressing the leg movements may not resolve the somnolence. . . . "
In other words, as I read that, it ain't always an "either/or" thing. Thus, as Kathy stressed, the importance of one thing at a time when trouble-shooting sleep. And, in my opinion, often the best place to start is effective PAP. Once the breathing is stabilized by optimal PAP therapy over some amount of time, then it can sometimes be a little easier to figure out the rest of the equation, as I understand it. It is my opinion that positional therapy may not have much of a role to play in that troubleshooting/diagnostic process. But hey, I could be wrong. I often am.

raffles97
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Re: No N3 'slow wave sleep

Post by raffles97 » Tue Jun 19, 2012 2:37 pm

You won't find me disagreeing but then I've just finished reading many pages of technical literature kindly referred to me over drug treatments for RLS so likely confused anyway.

RLS is, in my opinion the least of my worries with even possibility it's partially caused by respiratory events. Big thing on the list is positional since if sleeping on side there are minimal events affecting sleep. Of course there is mild snoring while on side which is a 'flag'. Main thing in my mind is the high likelyhood of my, no matter what tennis ball or tie down is used, rolling onto back at least part of the night.

So I'll be pushing to, at the very minimum, another sleep study with cpap to see what results will be.

ps. I've been handed one of those elastic cords one uses to exercise with to tie arm to bedpost tonight. Either I'll be bouncing all over or forced to sleep on left side tonight.

jnk
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Re: No N3 'slow wave sleep

Post by jnk » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:05 pm

Yes, I agree that it can be very confusing that the drug discussions and practice parameters often discuss both RLS and PLMD at the same time, even though very different conditions.

The point, I think, or at least it would be to me, is to be familiar with the consensus on drug strategies for PLMD treatment, and PLMD treatment only, while ignoring the statements on RLS treatment, when that is not the problem.

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kteague
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Re: No N3 'slow wave sleep

Post by kteague » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:09 pm

jnk wrote:
kteague wrote: . . . but I doubt I'm very unique. . . .
I disagree.
You are uniquely helpful, uniquely expressive, and uniquely exemplary in how you go about what you do on this board, based on your unique experiences in life. Invaluable. All of it. Just sayin'.
Other than that, I agree with you completely, though.
Thank you!

As to position restriction to help with apneas - I can see the value in that, however, when I tried to restrict my limb movements, it was a miserable epic fail, like trying to hold back ocean waves. I agree with therapeutically treating the OSA first then seing what residual movements are left and if they are detrimental to sleep or not. (Well, they're certainly detrimental to your wife's sleep.) Just based on my personal experience, I'm guessing your AHI would have been higher if you had not had limb movements. And possibly your limb movement index and arousals would have been more significant if there had been no apneas. One or the other has to be therapeutically treated to really see what's left, and due to greater risk factors with OSA, treating it first seems a logical course. I wouldn't want meds without being sure I needed them. Before you resort to meds on a regular basis, it could prove helpful to have some things like iron studies (to specifically include a ferritin level), and magnesium and Vitamin D levels. On the ferritin level, although the normal range can be quite low, it is generally recommended for those with limb movement issues to keep it above 50 - my sleep doc wants it even higher. If your movements are mild, it may be some targeted nutritional support will be enough to calm your symptoms.

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jnk
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Re: No N3 'slow wave sleep

Post by jnk » Tue Jun 19, 2012 3:11 pm

I think this is fairly recent stuff on PLMD drugs:

http://www.jfponline.com/pages.asp?id=10446

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zoocrewphoto
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Re: No N3 'slow wave sleep

Post by zoocrewphoto » Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:18 pm

I had a split night study. The first 2 1/2 hours without the machine for diagnosis and the rest of the night with the machine for titration.

During the first portion, I never made it to level 3 or 4 or REM. I understand that most people are worse in REM, but even so, I had an ahi of 79. Plenty of data for a diagnosis. I do know that at home I do reach REM, as I remember dreams almost every night, sometimes multiple dreams. So, it is possible that you reach those levels at home, and just didn't get there during your sleep study.

My apnea is worse on my back as well. Pretty typical for most people. My doctor made no suggestion of trying to sleep differently. The sleep lab simply determined the minimum level I need for side sleeping, and the maximum that I need during supine sleeping. That created the range that is my prescription. As I move around, the machine adjusts the pressure for my needs. It works well. I sleep better, I feel better, and my ahi is below 3 almost every night. I don't have to stress about my sleep position.

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Who would have thought it would be this challenging to sleep and breathe at the same time?

raffles97
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Re: No N3 'slow wave sleep

Post by raffles97 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:08 am

Well did tie myself to the bed frame last night. Not as sever as it sounds since I used a fair sized length of stretching tubing like they use on your arm when taking blood. Made a loop for right hand and tied other to bed frame leaving me plenty of room to move (I do try and sleep on left side) but attempt to roll over onto back would meet resistance.

Oddly enough this worked to keep me on my left side except for a few times I moved to lay on stomach. Actually a good night sleep kind of backing up the contention I have serious problems when roll to my back.

Is this the 'solution' for me? Going to give it a try which will arm me with experience for discussion with sleep doc. but leaving open option of cpap AND efforts to stay on side.

Really good advice you are all so kindly providing.

raffles97
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Re: No N3 'slow wave sleep

Post by raffles97 » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:43 am

Finished 4 nights with the bunggie cord, with loop on right hand and other end tied to bed frame so if I try to turn onto back get that rather gentle tug preventing it. Probably not for everyone but for me better than tennis ball on back.

So results, well no afternoon nap since starting and each day feel that I have that bit more energy and less sleepiness. Given that the sleep clinic showed serious positional cause it's not surprising. Going to work on this side sleeping very hard for next few weeks and see how it goes. Frankly it really means I likely should go back for another clinic but this time will forced side sleeping to check results. Many people do have positional apnea, yes I've been doing my homework, but often combination of cpap and forced side sleep are called for. If I end up with no cpap but AHI of 5 while side sleeping it will probably make my wife as well as myself happy. Mind you there is the snoring while on side which would be nice to eliminate.