Can We really go without REM sleep?

[MaxDarkside]

Research has shown that REM sleep deprivation led people to develop psychiatric symptoms. Now, antidepressants are known for reducing REM sleep...

Sounds like a dream for pharmaceutical companies. The drug indirectly increases the problem that it is treating?

[BasementDwellingGeek]

but we have another drug for that too, and another for it's side effects.

[esangston]

Living with a narcoleptic I can say from experience that living without rem sleep isn't the worst in the world. Yeah it sucks, but the sleep cycles are key. Hubby enters rem in 30 seconds. The man spends most of his sleep in rem and he's still utterly exhausted. Now when your body cycles sleep like it should you get quality sleep. That's the problem with apnea, if we get to rem, we wake up straight out of it. Key word IF lol. Someone had mentioned they don't remember their dreams anymore since starting cpap. If I have my dream info right, I believe you dream best in rem and it's when you wake up straight from it, you remember more vividly. When you cycle thru sleep, you forget your dreams. I could have the sleep stage wrong for dreams.

Intriguing about antidepressants. I always wondered why the commercials for those drugs talked about suicide concerns lol. Saw an article that said people with depression enter rem sleep earlier than their "normal" counterparts. Maybe the depression meds try to regulate the sleep of those who need it and for those that dont the med actually kills their sleep. Brain chemistry, as always, is the culprit.

[avi123]

I actually just had a few research hypotheses come to me as a result of this discussion.

Research has shown that REM sleep deprivation led people to develop psychiatric symptoms. Now, antidepressants are known for reducing REM sleep and the doctor felt that this sort of thing is nothing to worry about. However, have people actually been monitored and followed for years to see what the results of this reduction is? Also, there have been lawsuits because people on antidepressants have committed suicide, etc. Could the adverse effect actually be a result of this REM sleep deprivation that these medicines cause?

Maybe it's totally bogus thoughts, but it has me wondering now.

Your posts are not clear to me. I don't know what your sleep test showed and what this Doctor has exactly told you. In my case I had no REM sleep at all during my first night at the sleep clinic which was a diagnostic night. However, during the 2nd night which was a titration night on CPAP I did have REM sleep. So after being on a CPAP I did have REM sleep. The purpose of using a CPAP is also to improve the sleep architecture which brings back the REM sleep stage.

[VikingGnome]

Research has shown that REM sleep deprivation led people to develop psychiatric symptoms. Now, antidepressants are known for reducing REM sleep

Not all antidepressants suppress REM sleep. The SSRI and SNRI are the worst culprits as they affect the reuptake of serotonin and dopamine. Those neurotransmitters play a big role the normal sleep cycle. So you inhibit the reuptake of those neurotransmitters, the patient's mood gets better. But the tragic side effect is suppression of stage3 and REM sleep.

Depression and OSA are definitely intertwined. About 40% of OSA sufferers also have depression. Is the depression because disordered sleep? Science doesn't know yet. So docs give depressed OSA patients an antidepressant that suppresses deep stages of sleep to treat the depression and CPAP to treat the OSA but the patient still can't function due to EDS.

[robysue]

Not all antidepressants suppress REM sleep. The SSRI and SNRI are the worst culprits as they affect the reuptake of serotonin and dopamine. Those neurotransmitters play a big role the normal sleep cycle. So you inhibit the reuptake of those neurotransmitters, the patient's mood gets better. But the tragic side effect is suppression of stage3 and REM sleep.

Depression and OSA are definitely intertwined. About 40% of OSA sufferers also have depression. Is the depression because disordered sleep? Science doesn't know yet. So docs give depressed OSA patients an antidepressant that suppresses deep stages of sleep to treat the depression and CPAP to treat the OSA but the patient still can't function due to EDS.

Of course part of the problem here is that the doc who's treating the depression by prescribing the antidepressants that may suppress S3 and REM sleep and the doc who's treating the OSA by prescribing the CPAP never talk to each other. And both may readily dismiss the patient's questions about the how one treatment might affect the other as "not part of their expertise" or "nothing to worry about".

[Samba]

When you're depressed phase 3 & 4 sleep usually disappear although you get more but shorter REM episodes.
Of course with OSA you got most of the same results. Add antidepressants to that...

[awritersmind1]

I actually just had a few research hypotheses come to me as a result of this discussion.

Research has shown that REM sleep deprivation led people to develop psychiatric symptoms. Now, antidepressants are known for reducing REM sleep and the doctor felt that this sort of thing is nothing to worry about. However, have people actually been monitored and followed for years to see what the results of this reduction is? Also, there have been lawsuits because people on antidepressants have committed suicide, etc. Could the adverse effect actually be a result of this REM sleep deprivation that these medicines cause?

Maybe it's totally bogus thoughts, but it has me wondering now.

Your posts are not clear to me. I don't know what your sleep test showed and what this Doctor has exactly told you. In my case I had no REM sleep at all during my first night at the sleep clinic which was a diagnostic night. However, during the 2nd night which was a titration night on CPAP I did have REM sleep. So after being on a CPAP I did have REM sleep. The purpose of using a CPAP is also to improve the sleep architecture which brings back the REM sleep stage.

My tests showed a great reduction in REM sleep. They still refuse to do a titration study, though. My first night it was 7.3% and the second one was 4%. During REM my RDIs were 37 and 34. When I figured the AHI I got 52 and 48. However, they average the number out over the entire night and it looks like it's not a big deal. However, from what research I have done through medical journals, REM specific apnea is a form and I fit the category of those who are more prone to this form cause I'm a younger woman. However, my doctor has no experience with it and despite me bringing in the articles he's using his own discretion to say my apneas cannot cause me to be feeling this tired and crappy. However, he wouldn't let me hypothesize anything... Sigh.

[sickwithapnea17]

isn't stage 3 sleep the most important? I had a sleep study that showed 0.5% stage 3 when it should be around 5% and when I woke up I was foggy and tired