CSA's what are my options?

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Namlehse
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CSA's what are my options?

Post by Namlehse » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:47 am

So one thing I've noticed a lot of since I've been able to pull my sleep data, is that I see a LOT of CSA's. It's random when they happen, however in the words of my girlfriend "I just get stuck in a pattern". Some nights I have zero issues, some nights I have horrible issues. I'm starting to think it's why I'm not sleeping so well. My AHI sits around 5 each night, the best night so far being 3.5, worst being around 7.

This is screenshot of what I'm seeing (Be warned, I have a 3840x1080 Screen Res, so you can click on it to open it directly as well..)

What can I do to prevent these? They had me at 18cmH20 strait CPAP, I tried going to 12-18 APAP, 9-18 APAP, and so on. Should I be pushing for BiPAP/VPAP? I'm still pretty new to this, My OSA is fairly well handled at two to four events a night. I'm also seeing a few Hypoapenas, but I'm assuming that's just adjusting to xPAP in general?

Thanks for taking the time to help!

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teknomom
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Re: CSA's what are my options?

Post by teknomom » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:56 am

What do you mean by a LOT? What is the breakdown of your AHI - how many are Clear airway apneas? Did any of these show up on your sleep study?

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Re: CSA's what are my options?

Post by Pugsy » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:01 am

What is your break down in your AHI to each event category? How many centrals, obstructive and hyponeas.

Pick a typical night...Not your best and not your worst...and can you show the event graphs in real time and not zoomed in so we can see the general pattern for the entire night?
Also, do you wake often during the night when you have a lot of centrals show up?

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Namlehse
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Re: CSA's what are my options?

Post by Namlehse » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:31 am

This is a typical night for me. The first set of CSA's I might have been awake for, the ones near the end according to my sleep tracker (And Girlfriend, ha) I was asleep for. I also slept through the night, didn't wake (At least that I know of)

Around 1/2 my nights are like this.
The Vent Breakdown:
CAA 33 Events
Hypopnea 8 Events
Obstructive Apnea 5 Events

Image

For reference this is an average of the 1/3. I tend to have two average, then one like this.

Thus far, I've only had two nights break an AHI of 4. This is the second best of the two.

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JohnBFisher
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Re: CSA's what are my options?

Post by JohnBFisher » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:55 am

Namlehse wrote:... So one thing I've noticed a lot of since I've been able to pull my sleep data, is that I see a LOT of CSA's. ...
First, welcome to the forum. It's good to see that you are taking an interest in your therapy. Tracking the data can be very helpful. However, a note about the data is that while it might feel alarming, you might just be seeing a "normal" pattern for your sleep. We'll tackle the use of "a LOT" in a few moments. What I do want to reassure you is that it is important to monitor your own therapy. No one else is as interested in your health as you are (or at least should be).
Namlehse wrote:... It's random when they happen, however in the words of my girlfriend "I just get stuck in a pattern". ...
First of all, that you know the pattern is random is helpful. Second, having someone else be able to note when it becomes a pattern like that is also helpful. It shows that there is likely something systemic happening. Not bad. Not something to worry about. Just that a pattern gets set up and continues until something changes.

Now, I've got some questions you might want to ask your girlfriend:
  • Does the pattern seem to occur as you fall asleep?
  • Does the pattern seem to occur just before you awaken?
  • Does the pattern seem to occur just before you toss and turn?
  • Does the pattern seem to occur just after you toss and turn?
  • Does poking you / jarring you seem to help break the cycle?
  • Does anything during the previous day seem to signal a bad night?
The answers might help sort out what's happens before/after this pattern.
Namlehse wrote:... Some nights I have zero issues, some nights I have horrible issues. ...
Unfortunately, when your symptoms are variable, it can make it difficult for your doctor to find the right information to help you treat your sleep problems. So, please be aware that it might take a while before your doctor can gather the data he needs to decide on the right path forward.
Namlehse wrote:... I'm starting to think it's why I'm not sleeping so well. ...
Well, if you do have "a LOT" of CA events, then it might be why you are not sleeping well. Remember a couple things. First of all, the CA events should stand for "Clear Airway" events. They may not be central sleep apneas. Why do I say that? Well, if you just rouse awake enough to flip onto your side you might be having apneas that occur when you transition to and from sleep. Those clear airway events are not considered central apneas because they are both common and expected. But if they occur throughout the night, they may in fact be central apneas. You need the full sleep study to determine if they are in fact something that should be treated. With one caveat to that ... If the clear airway events last so long that it disturbs the transition to and from sleep they need to be addressed.

Also remember that the machine only records how you are breathing. It does not record other things that might be disturbing your sleep. For instance, do you have a lot of arousals. (When you rouse just from a deeper level of sleep to a lighter level of sleep). Are they due to respiratory problems (hypopneas or apneas)? Or are they "spontaneous"?

That's just one example. There are LOTS of things that can interfere with good sleep.
Namlehse wrote:... My AHI sits around 5 each night, the best night so far being 3.5, worst being around 7. ...
Here's where we get to the phrase "a LOT". You see, an AHI of 5 or less is considered "normal". I do not doubt that you are not sleeping well. I just wonder if the apneas are the cause of the poor sleep.
Namlehse wrote:... What can I do to prevent these? ... Should I be pushing for BiPAP/VPAP? ...
It might be that something else needs to be addressed. And unfortunately with the variability of your sleep, it might take a while before it can be fully diagnosed and resolved. One thing you might want to see is if your blood oxygen level drops during the night. You might want to ask your doctor if he can order several nights of overnight monitoring of your blood oxygen levels. That is one way that will let you see if these apneas are at the heart of your poor sleep.
Namlehse wrote:... I'm still pretty new to this, My OSA is fairly well handled at two to four events a night. I'm also seeing a few Hypoapenas, but I'm assuming that's just adjusting to xPAP in general? ...
Some hypopneas are "normal". The important thing is that you are monitoring your therapy. It's what you need to do to see that it improves your sleep and your ability to function during the day. There is a lot to learn. But you've started down that path.

Best wishes!

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Namlehse
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Re: CSA's what are my options?

Post by Namlehse » Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:16 am

Thanks for the good information! I guess when I say a lot, I was just seeing them in stints. I can go half the night without any, then spend the last hour having 20. That's always been my issue with AHI. Part of what made me really start taking more intrest in this is that I've woken with horrible headaches the past few days, which are like the ones I had before starting treatment all together.

Per your questions.
Does the pattern seem to occur as you fall asleep?
Does the pattern seem to occur just before you awaken?
Does the pattern seem to occur just before you toss and turn?
Does the pattern seem to occur just after you toss and turn?
Does poking you / jarring you seem to help break the cycle?
Does anything during the previous day seem to signal a bad night?
She said, yes, shortly after I fall to sleep.
Possibly before I awaken, though I general wake up before her.
Not sure about tossing, says I don't turn to much general.
Same as before.
Poking does nothing, hitting, shoving, shaking, so on.
Not to much changes from day to day,

She said that when I have the CSA's she really can't do much to wake me, it doesn't seem to bother me, but it scares the hell out of her. As for OSA's, I jerk and jar like I'm having major issues, I'm also easy to awaken if I don't awaken myself.

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Re: CSA's what are my options?

Post by Namlehse » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:41 pm

So I called my doctor's office, spent a bit talking to the nurse. She's ordered an Overnight Oximetry that I have to pick up today. Hopefully that will provide a bit more information!

Thanks for the advice, just trying to figure all of this out one step at a time.

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teknomom
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Re: CSA's what are my options?

Post by teknomom » Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:50 pm

Getting in touch with your doctor was a great first step since you got the order for pulse oximetry and that may give you some useful data. I hope it goes well and your doctor can help you find the next step. Good Luck!

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Re: CSA's what are my options?

Post by DrBucky » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:08 pm

Try getting rid of the EPR; You have it set to "3". I know EPR for me raises my AHI ratings by about 2-4 points/increases reported CA events; though I'm not sure if this is significant/has any health effects. There is actually some physiological reasons why this could occur (changing pressures by 3 cm/H20 in essence causes some "forced" ventilation/washes out more CO2) so its not a completely far fetched result.

Seeing the doctor was the right move, however eliminating the EPR setting on your CPAP might be an interesting experiment.

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Namlehse
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Re: CSA's what are my options?

Post by Namlehse » Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:25 am

DrBucky wrote:Try getting rid of the EPR; You have it set to "3". I know EPR for me raises my AHI ratings by about 2-4 points/increases reported CA events; though I'm not sure if this is significant/has any health effects. There is actually some physiological reasons why this could occur (changing pressures by 3 cm/H20 in essence causes some "forced" ventilation/washes out more CO2) so its not a completely far fetched result.

Seeing the doctor was the right move, however eliminating the EPR setting on your CPAP might be an interesting experiment.
I'll give it a shot.

Irony however, the night I'm using the oximeter, was the single best night I've had on CPAP with an AHI of 1.16.

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Re: CSA's what are my options?

Post by Namlehse » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:30 am

Soo, on my sleep doc's advice, I decided to set my range from 18-20 (She wanted to push me to 19 CPAP.. Doesn't "trust" APAP).

This is an average night from the results

Events:
Clear Airway Apnea 208 events
Hypopnea 12 events
Obstructive Apnea 8 events
Unspecified Apena 4 events

Needless to say, I've been sleeping like crap. It was actually to the point of waking me up in the middle of the night again, like before I even USED CPAP.

I was recently taken off a drug that seems to be able to retard CSA's I'm also wondering if that may be why my results are so horrifying. It's been two to three weeks since I've loaded my dada (Also on her request, she said it would settle down on it's own.. I needed to stop watching it..). Must... sleeep.. I've finally turned my pressure down to a more manageable level, at least then the leaks don't wake me.. only the apneas..

This is an average night for me now..

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Pugsy
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Re: CSA's what are my options?

Post by Pugsy » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:40 pm

Geez....
What was the rationale on the increase in pressure to hurricane force? You were doing better (at least on paper) with the much lower minimum pressure.
Your obstructive events on your Feb 3 reports were essentially nil. Why did they want to increase the pressure? Looks to me like all it did was create a truckload of centrals and pretty much doom you to feeling awful. No wonder you feel like crap.

I am not going to offer anything except please take the time to read this thread and click on the links to the reports (hopefully they are still active). See if you can relate to any of it.
viewtopic.php?t=68846

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Re: CSA's what are my options?

Post by robysue » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:53 pm

Namlehse,

I just want to chip in my support for what Pugsy said: How such a drastic increase in pressure could be rationalized by the doc is beyond me. And all it did was create about 6 or 7 times as many CAs as you had before.

If this happened to me, I think I'd be on the phone to the doc's office demand a call-back from the doc or at least a nurse or PA. And once I had the doc or nurse or PA on the phone, I'd let them know that with the pressure increase the CAI went from 4.0 to 30.1. And that I'm feeling really awful. And that something needs to be changed so that I can get something that vaguely resembles real sleep. (Of course, I've also been fired twice as a patient.)

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Re: CSA's what are my options?

Post by archangle » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:17 pm

Common wisdom is to reduce pressure if there are too many CAs. You often have to trade OA at low pressure vs. CA at high pressure.

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Pugsy
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Re: CSA's what are my options?

Post by Pugsy » Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:29 pm

archangle wrote:Common wisdom is to reduce pressure if there are too many CAs.
Yep, that was my first thought too. My second thought probably is not suitable for public reading. Like WT...
robysue wrote:(Of course, I've also been fired twice as a patient.)
Really? The second one fired you too? I guess I missed the last one. Better watch out, you will be on the black list like me if you aren't careful. CPAPs Most UnWanted List....Patients to avoid...

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