Let's clear up some misinformation

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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PST
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Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by PST » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:26 pm

kempo wrote:This is how the left portrays the average American, "RACISTS". If you don't like Obama Care you are a racist. Just saying the phrase "Obama Care" you are considered a racist by some.
I've heard that complaint over and over, yet I've never in my life actually heard someone called a racist for opposing the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), nor have I ever seen such an accusation in print. Let's see if you can come up with even one actual quotation, kempo, one single citation as evidence of someone being called a racist just because he doesn't like this law. Really, the endless self-pity of you people over imaginary slights astonishes me.

You make two substantive observations. The first is that the PPACA is "taking" $500 billion out of Medicare and giving it to Medicaid. That has been a frequent talking point in the recent Republican presidential debates, but of course it isn't true. The PPACA does try to control the increase in Medicare spending over the next ten years. The $500 billion figure comes from the reduction in the amount planned over ten years compared to what would happen if we did nothing. I don't know anyone, anywhere who is against trying to control rising Medicare costs. The normal complaint is that the PPACA doesn't do enough. "Stealing from Medicare" is just something opponents trot out misleadingly when they want to demonize the act. Under the PPACA, the cost of Medicare will "only" go from $499 billion per year in 2009 to $929 billion per year in 2020. If the act can save an average of $50 billion a year, that would be great. There is an excellent, dispassionate explanation of how the PPACA aims to accomplish this at http://www.kaiseredu.org/Tutorials-and- ... icare.aspx. A large part is controlling the increase in the rate of provider payments. Part of the savings is from curtailing what are called disproportionate share hospital (DSH) payments, some of which come out of the Medicare budget. These go to hospitals that treat a disproportionate number of uninsured patients. Those payments will be greatly reduced starting in 2014, which makes sense, since the number of uninsured patients should decline. Finally, much of the savings comes from reducing the subsidy to Medicare Advantage members. This is a program that replaces traditional Medicare by instead paying an insurance premium to a private carrier. That's all well and good, except we are now paying much more for the Medicare Advantage members than for other beneficiaries. If private insurance is more efficient, good, but why should we pay extra. The PPACA cuts back on the subsidy. The main point, though, is that the PPACA isn't taking money out of one program and putting it in another. It is simply trying to control the rate of increase in Medicare costs, which everyone agrees is necessary.

Your second point is that all our health insurance problems would be solved if only Congress would pass legislation to force the states to allow consumers to purchase insurance across state lines. I don't know where to begin. The states regulate health insurance, as they should, but that doesn't mean big companies don't offer health insurance in every state of the United States. The industry is dominated by a few large, publicly traded corporations like Unitedhealth Group, Wellpoint, Kaiser, and Aetna. The fact that they follow state standards and often operate through state subsidiaries doesn't mean we don't have a national market for health insurance. Those companies are everywhere. In addition, large employers avoid state regulation altogether by self-insuring part of their cost and buying stop-loss insurance on the national market. There is a thriving association market as well. This only works for large organizations, however. Small businesses and individuals can't use a far-away health insurer the way they can a life insurer, for example, because with health insurance you are buying much more than a fixed payment in case of a loss. Among the biggest benefits of health insurance is what I think of as the Sam's Club effect. Health insurance is almost all based now on negotiating a discount with providers in exchange for volume, and only a company with many local insureds is in a position to negotiate a decent discount. For example, I'm looking at my most recent hospital bill right now. The face amount is $21,13.65, but the discount is $13,650.41, so the insurance company and I only have to pay about one third of the official rate. I get that benefit because the Blue Cross company here in Illinois has market power because of its huge customer base. If I wanted to buy from Joe's Insurance Company of Tacoma, Washington, it couldn't get the good deal and couldn't offer me a decent premium. The idea that interstate purchase would cure the market's ills is an illusion. In any location, there will never be more than a limited number of carriers with enough members to squeeze the healthcare providers effectively.
Last edited by PST on Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kiralynx
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Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by Kiralynx » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:37 pm

gvz wrote:1) Get off your ass.
2) Get a fucking job.
3) Buy your own machine.
4) Deal with it.
Had a job.

Company execs squirrelled around, making sure their golden parachutes were in place.

Company declared bankruptcy and is no more.

Can't get a job because of a moderate handicap -- and employers don't want to make allowances when they have a couple hundred perfectly healthy people applying for the same position.

Did save up and buy a second machine and everything to go with it before that, though.

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NateS
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Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by NateS » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:08 pm

tempo wrote:…The availability of competitively priced insurance is the problem. Do you have trouble buying car insurance at a competitive price? Home insurance? Life insurance? NO because you can buy it from anyone in the U.S. But you can only buy health insurance from someone inside your State. In my State there is just a hand full of companies you can buy from. Thats the law. Talk to your congress critter about it.

If we were allowed to buy health insurance from any company in the U.S. people could buy insurance in larger groups. The health insurance companies would be beating each other up trying to get your business. Look at all of the Vehicle, Home, and Life insurance companies advertising all day and night on TV and radio.

Just my 2 cents.
As a former insurance claims adjuster I can assure you that your 2 cents is wrong. Vehicle, Home, and Life insurance companies can advertise all they want all day and night on your TV and radio, but you can only buy a policy of insurance from them if they are licensed in your state.

So that argument does not support your position.

In addition, you seem to have your "left" and "right" talking points mixed up. It is the right wing that argues for "states' rights" regulation and against federal government regulation. Your argument that you want everyone to be "…allowed to buy health insurance from any company in the U.S.…" requires Federal laws to override your "states' rights" yet you gave us the impression that you want the Federal government to refrain from enacting laws on health insurance.

The health insurance industry is a parasite. Unlike the principal of spreading risk that gives rise to private insurance companies selling vehicle, home and life insurance, and they are heavily regulated in doing that, believe me, health insurance companies serve no public good and are in the business of keeping as much as they can of what they collect in order to enrich shareholders and officers and directors and CEOs by meeting goals of denying as much coverage as possible wherever possible. Their so-called "cost of administration" is many many times the cost of administration of Medicare. Maybe you should try to explain why America is the only industrial country in the civilized world which fails to provide universal health care to its citizens.

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kempo
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Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by kempo » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:11 pm

Good afternoon PST. I have been called a racist right here on this forum for disagreeing with Obama Care and for using the phrase Obama Care. I'm not going back through the posts to find it but it happened.

I could show you article after article on how Obama Care will transfer a half trillion from medicare and move it to medicaid but you would just say it is just right wing BS. I disagree with you.

I never said ALL of the problems with healthcare would be solved by passing legislation so companies could sell health insurance across state lines. But I believe, along with a large number of people, it would be the best thing to help cut premiums for the consumer. But we will never know for sure will we because you and your friends will not let it happen.

Good night PST.

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idamtnboy
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Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by idamtnboy » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:23 pm

gvz wrote:Hello,

Here is the answer for the people enslaved by DMEs who are actively trying to harm them, as some people have said.

1) Get off your ass.
2) Get a fucking job.
3) Buy your own machine.
4) Deal with it.
1) My son has never sat on his butt waiting for someone to help him out.
2) He has a job, for a company supplying parts to office furniture makers. An American job, supplying American manufacturers, but still he's only paid a near poverty wage, which incidentally is well above minimum wage. It's not just a job sweeping floors. He is running machinery that forms and shapes and welds and paints the legs on the office chair you're probably sitting on now, plus other similar responsibilities.
3) He can't afford a decent vehicle to get back and forth to work, let alone buy a CPAP out of pocket if he ever needs one.
4) But best of all, he IS dealing with it. I'm proud to say he is making it on his own, without me giving him regular handouts.

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Last edited by idamtnboy on Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DougK

Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by DougK » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:27 pm

My insurance doesn't work the same as most of yours as mine does 60 day rental with purchase, unlike most of yours which seem to do 12 months. I do know for my insurance when I was prescribed an Auto machine, the insurance wanted to know why I needed an Auto over a standard CPAP. My doctor had to send them the sleep study and they approved of me getting a Auto CPAP over a straight one. So some insurance do care if you get an Auto and if you want one why.

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Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by Airplaneman » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:28 pm

I remember how we were promised if only we could buy energy over state lines all would be better and the price of energy would go down for everybody. Then along came Enron and lots of us know the story from there. It seems the Democrats believe wealth comes from the government and the Republicans believe wealth come from unrestricted capitalism. The truth is somewhere inbetween I guess. The answers are not magical and not simple.
-Airplane

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DougV

Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by DougV » Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:33 pm

Also unlike most of you I had no choice in what DME I use, my insurance companies requires I go to the DME that is both in network and referred to by my doctor with their prior authorization. There is no taking my prescription to another DME as no other will be covered.

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rocklin
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Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by rocklin » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:42 am

DougV wrote:Also unlike most of you I had no choice in what DME I use, my insurance companies requires I go to the DME that is both in network and referred to by my doctor with their prior authorization. There is no taking my prescription to another DME as no other will be covered.
I finally have a great relationship with my insurance company.

Anytime they deny me something, I call them up and find the name of who is responsible.

I am very polite, warm and effusive.

I explain that I am always on the look out for their bottom line, and can give past examples to back it up.

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If that doesn't work, I give a current example:

I have this sudden twisting pain in my lower-spine, ya see, and I'll bet my back specialist will probably say I should get an MRI (at his MRI facility, naturally) to see what's wrong with it.

But for right now,I didn't feel it was necessary.

Because I am always looking to reduce their cost, and I expect that that they will be reasonable with me in return.

Then there's this sudden, sharp pain in my calf that I just noticed, undoubtedly my orthopedist will demand an MRI (at his MRI facility, naturally), to be on the safe side . . .

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RandyJ
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Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by RandyJ » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:33 am

Calling health care legislation that has been passed by our Congress "Obamacare" is inflammatory and unnecessary. It's like calling Social Security "FDR tax" because it was introduced by President Roosevelt. Both Presidents have attempted to do something that is good for the non-millionaires among us. Whether the reality of either legislation lives up to original intent is another debate, for another forum.

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The Choker
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Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by The Choker » Thu Jan 26, 2012 6:59 am

mstevens wrote: ... Such a system will likely never be available to most Americans because in every respect this system is a fantastic example of everything that's right with socialized medicine. .... There's probably no way that the average American will ever be willing to risk spending his own money to save the life of someone else's child, especially if that child has the wrong shade of skin or speaks with the wrong accent.

Anyone who thinks racist charges were not made in this thread has a self-serving mental block.
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Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by purple » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:19 am

NateS Thank you for your reply, I suspect you are accurate about insurance companies. I wonder if the upcoming public health care program will be very economical as it actually going to be administered by the "for profit" insurance industry. Obama originally wanted a 'single payer" public health care system, which would have pushed the big insurance companies out of the huge profits.

As it is, I suspect that the medical insurance companies will be paying the big lobbying bucks to keep out a 'single payer' system, and then manipulate the rules to keep their profits high.

I think the person who originally posted in behalf of her industry, the DME's, and such should be politely thanked for speaking the truth as she knows it, even though I disagree with her. I suspect she is correct in saying that there are a lot of patients are satisfied with a brick xpap machine and never worrying about the settings. I think my xpap treatment is way too important to my well being to wait for seeing my doc every three months. Even if a patient chooses to know nothing about the data his machine produces, I do not see why a doc should accept that idea. Obviously a persons settings need change over time, and I do not see a Medicare rule that talks about how easy it is to do a free titration every year. But my point is, I think itts spoke her truth, and we should accept it at as the best as her experience tells her. On the other hand, a lot of people on the forum advocate using auto settings for nearly everyone when we also know it does cause central apneas which are dangerous, and bad to one's health. BTW, I use my machine on AUTO.

I further believe that no brick machines should be sold, the price differential today would not be so much higher, as the cost would be distributed across the entire market. I can guess that the current marketing climate that sells both a brick and a full data with auto capability is driven by that principle that a company should sell a crippled product to have a better product to sell for more money. That would be another time when our free market capitalism principles are causing harm rather than encouraging innovation.

Best to all of you.

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Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by VVV » Thu Jan 26, 2012 10:42 am

purple wrote: I can guess that the current marketing climate that sells both a brick and a full data with auto capability is driven by that principle that a company should sell a crippled product to have a better product to sell for more money. That would be another time when our free market capitalism principles are causing harm rather than encouraging innovation.
I have trouble understanding this part of your post. It is clear that you want to take a slap at capitalism but what does this paragraph really mean?

As far as innovation goes, I have a very old machine and over some years I have observed a continuous march of new machines that get rave reviews in the forum. This includes the top-of-the-line machines from ResMed, Philips, and some smaller suppliers and low volume machines such as BIPAPs and ASV. The same can be said for masks, humidifiers, and heated and unheated hoses.

That sounds like innovation to me and despite actually having three very old but perfectly working machines I am constantly tempted to buy one of the new machines. This innovation did not come from government regulations and central planning but from profit-seeking capitalists.

But again, I had trouble understanding those two sentences of yours and maybe you can clarify it for me.

On another point,
purple wrote: On the other hand, a lot of people on the forum advocate using auto settings for nearly everyone when we also know it does cause central apneas which are dangerous, and bad to one's health.
I have been using an auto with good results for about eight years and was not aware of this. It sounds alarming. Maybe it does not apply to everyone?
.....................................V

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Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by Pugsy » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:09 am

VVV wrote:I have been using an auto with good results for about eight years and was not aware of this. It sounds alarming. Maybe it does not apply to everyone?
APAPs don't automatically cause centrals for everyone. To say that APAPs are dangerous for everyone because they might cause centrals is misinformation. APAPs don't cause centrals anymore than any other machine.

Some people (maybe 10 to 15 %) of xpap users may develop centrals in response to cpap treatment or pressure. This can happen even with a straight cpap...doesn't have to be just an apap. Doesn't have to be a high pressure like a lot of people think. It can happen just as easily at 8 cm of pressure.
If for some reason one of these people (who are part of that 10 to 15%) happen to have an APAP and the APAP is responding to obstructive events that need more pressure...it might trigger centrals in the same manner that a straight cpap machine would.

I used APAP machine for well over 2 years. My minimum was 10 cm and maximum was 20. I often hit 18cm. I have had no more than a few random centrals that probably wouldn't even be counted in a sleep lab. Obviously I am not one of that 10 to 15% that might develop centrals in response to pressure of any amount. There are a lot of people on straight cpap at extremely high pressures and they don't have a problem with centrals. There are a lot of people using APAPs with a wide range and they don't have a problems with centrals. Yes..a small percentage might have a problem with centrals but it is because of the pressure used (for them) and not the fact that the machine is a cpap or apap.

APAP machines don't do a thing when they sense a "central". No raise in pressure. If there is a raise in pressure it is because of some sort of obstructive event precursor. If the obstructive component of someone's sleep apnea makes a person need more pressure and they happen to be part of that minority that any pressure triggers centrals....then they get a different machine.

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VVV
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Re: Let's clear up some misinformation

Post by VVV » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:20 am

Pugsy wrote:

APAPs don't automatically cause centrals for everyone. To say that APAPs are dangerous for everyone because they might cause centrals is misinformation. APAPs don't cause centrals anymore than any other machine.
Thank you Pugsy. I rarely have a night where the AHI is above 3 and usually it is below 2. I guess some of those events could be centrals because my software does not distinguish between central and obstructive.

Centrals don't seem to be a problem for m even when I roll onto my back and the pressure ramps up high. My current sleep doctor did a titration and never mentioned centrals and he also sees my reports from the machine on every visit. It seems it is nothing to be concerned with.

Just to be on the safe side I will ask on my next doctor's visit.
.....................................V