Should I continue with BiPap Therapy - longish post

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
MarcusCicero
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Should I continue with BiPap Therapy - longish post

Post by MarcusCicero » Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:20 pm

Hi. I'm wondering if I really need BiPap Therapy and wondered if you could help me interpret the Sleep Test results.

I apologize in advance for the length of this.

I did a split-night sleep study with PAP Titration. Their IMPRESSION narrative is as follows:
This overnight polysomnogram demonstrates evidence of an overall mild to moderate degree of sleep-disordered breathing with a Total Respiratory Disturbance Index of 15.7 events per hour. There was no significant desaturation and there were only 6.1 arousals per hour as a result of respiratory events, indicating an overall mild impairment of sleep from sleep-dosordered breathing. While a Split-Study for CPAP titration was attempted, an optimal CPAP pressure was not identified. Despite all pressure settings tested, the patient continued to have respiratory events that started to develop central respiratory events and increasing amounts of wakefulness during CPAP titration.
Their RECOMMENDATIONS narrative:
Given the fairly mild nature of this patient's sleep-disordered breathing, and the lack of any significant desaturation, and only 6 arousals per hour, I do not think this patient necessarily would require CPAP. Given his intolerance during this titration and the lack of an effective titration, other options for treatment should be considered... [etc, etc, suggesting other options]
So, my reading of that is that my AHI was 6 without using the machine.

I subsequently went back in solely for a titration study, since the first study never revealed any setting that made my apneas less frequent. The second test (titration test) actually made the apneas worse.

Their IMPRESSION:
CPAP was initiated at 6 cwp and titrated to as high as 11 csp with the patient notably demonstrating only brief and repeated episodes of sleep, with frequent prolonged periods of wakefulness, likely due to some discomfort with the CPAP device. Once the patient did enter more consistent sleep with CPAP 11 cwp, a combination of obstructive and central apneas were see, resulting in a severely elevated Apnea-Hypopnea Index (AHI) of 48, with significant sleep architecture disruption.

The patient was then switched to bilevel PAP at 15/11 cwp, and used this device for just over 3-1/2 hours, with over 2 hours of supine sleep. Unfortunately, bilvel PAP 15/11 cwp proved suboptimally effective, with continued central apneas and very rare hypopneas, with residual Apnea-Hypopnea Index (AHI)/Respiratory Disturbance Index (RDI) of 18.6 while supine and 9.7 during lateral sleep. This mild sleep architecture disruption persisted, with rare desaturations to no lower than 89%.
Their RECOMMENDATIONS:
While recommendations regarding optimally effective settings cannot be made at this time, I believe it would be reasonable to start the patient on bilevel PAP at 15/11 cwp for now, following closely for any residual symptoms or hypoxemia. It is entirely possible that the patient's central apneas will resolve over time,w ith ongoing use of CPAP.
The confusing part about these two tests is that after the first test, their recommendation was "Given the fairly mild nature of this patient's sleep-disordered breathing, and the lack of any significant desaturation, and only 6 arousals per hour, I do not think this patient necessarily would require CPAP. Given his intolerance during this titration and the lack of an effective titration, other options for treatment should be considered."...

and given that the titration test made my AHI/RDI numbers worse when actually on the machine, I'm wondering if I really am a good candidate for OSA therapy.

I have since been given a machine and started out at their recommended bilevel PAP of15/11 cwp. I simply couldn't sleep with it at those settings. Felt so completely exhausted and sleep deprived that I was minimally functional, so quit it for close to a month and told my doctor that I was not tolerating the machine and that it made me more exhausted. She advised me to give it another try at different settings. This time at the Full Auto Bipap with range of 5 - 20. I've been able to sleep with this new setting (for the last 5 days), but my AHI has not improved.

My readings for the last 5 days are as follow:

AHI=7.12, CA=4.06, OA=0.83, H=2.27

Avg pressure has been 6.05

A brief history of my sleeping is that I have not been able to sleep well for a very long time and pretty much never wake up feeling rested, and get tired fairly easily. So, in spite of the relatively low AHI numbers, I wonder if I am a good candidate for CPAP/BIPAP therapy in you guys' view. The only reason I went in for a sleep test at all was because I went on a vacation with friends and stayed in the same house, and I awoke both of them (they were in different rooms with their doors closed), and they were astounded at the sounds I was making (gasping, snoring, etc), so I got the sleep test. I was surprised it turned out to be mild, when their description of how I was sleeping sounded severe.

Anyway, any advice would be appreciated. I don't feel any better after having used the device for 5 days, and in fact feel slightly less rested than without using it. How long should I try this do you think?

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jamiswolf
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Re: Should I continue with BiPap Therapy - longish post

Post by jamiswolf » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:27 pm

Marcus,
It's a little difficult to make that call since there are so many different aspects to it. There are symptoms that are problematic, and you say you don't sleep well and your friends reported serious snoring.

Have you explored the positional aspect to your snoring? Do you snore less while sleeping on your side. Back or supine sleeping is worst for snoring and apnea.

Do you have weight to lose? That's another part of the puzzle.

There's some research on Vitamin D3a levels as they relate to sleep apnea.

You could take up the Didgeridoo as a throat exercise activity.

I would say that you're a good candidate for possible avoiding cpap...but that statement is dependent on the answers to the questions I posed.

Good luck,
Jamis

Edit: I wanted to add a little about the central or clear airway apneas that you started having with cpap. That's referred to as complex apnea which you may want to research. About 10-15% of people starting cpap have this occur. Could be that you'll adapt to bipap and do well...but the other possibility is that as the centrals emerge, you may have to go with an even more sophisticated and expensive machine called an auto servo ventilation which will treat the CAs. So your cpap use may not be totally smooth sailing judging by what's happened already.

MarcusCicero
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Re: Should I continue with BiPap Therapy - longish post

Post by MarcusCicero » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:47 pm

Hi jamiswolf,

Thanks for the reply. I neglected to include in my long first post that the titration study indicated an RDI of 18.6 while supine, and 9.7 during lateral sleep. I practically always sleep on my side anyway, so I'm in optimal position (sleeping-wise). I only slept on my back during the sleep study because I had so many wires hooked up to me, I figured something would come undone if I slept on my side.

I'm not overweight, either, so that's good. D-Vitamin levels are within normal range, too.

I have an appt to take my little S-disc into the respiratory tech next Friday, so I figure I'll just keep using the machine until then. I really do wish that I could get my AHI down to around 1 like many of you have succeeded in doing. Mine is at an avg of 7.12 for the last 5 days. I can imagine that sleeping with only one apnea per hour must feel like heaven in terms of waking up feeling refreshed.

Good luck to you all in your quest for good sleep.

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jamiswolf
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Re: Should I continue with BiPap Therapy - longish post

Post by jamiswolf » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:06 pm

Marcus,
Apneas aren't the only thing to cause poor sleep. I'm fairly new at this (less then 6 months) and am by no means an expert. But fragmented sleep with a deficit in REM or deep sleep can cause issues as well. Medications are a common culprit...though alcohol and generally poor sleep hygiene can certainly be contributing factors.

So look at the total picture...
J

MarcusCicero
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Re: Should I continue with BiPap Therapy - longish post

Post by MarcusCicero » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:10 pm

jamiswolf wrote:Marcus,
Apneas aren't the only thing to cause poor sleep. I'm fairly new at this (less then 6 months) and am by no means an expert. But fragmented sleep with a deficit in REM or deep sleep can cause issues as well. Medications are a common culprit...though alcohol and generally poor sleep hygiene can certainly be contributing factors.

So look at the total picture...
J
Thanks, jamiswolf. Yeah, poor sleep is my longtime nemesis. I know about all the regular sleep hygiene protocols. The new part to me is apnea and the machines that treat it. I've just yet to figure out whether this treatment is for me, as my numbers indicate a mild form of apnea. Time will tell. I'll give it at least another week. Going away for a couple of nights tomorrow and taking my machine with me. Presently, after the admittedly short trial of 5 days, I feel somehow, less rested than without the machine, but that might be just getting used to the machine. Is it not uncommon for folks to feel less rested when first starting, only to feel much better after adjusting to the machines? I would suppose that there is a correspondence in how you feel with your AHI numbers?

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jamiswolf
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Re: Should I continue with BiPap Therapy - longish post

Post by jamiswolf » Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:49 pm

Marcus wrote: Is it not uncommon for folks to feel less rested when first starting, only to feel much better after adjusting to the machines?
I haven't seen any common patterns of response. Seems to be very individualistic. Sometimes people feel good right away and then have problems emerge. Experiencing a sort-of honeymoon phase. Some people take to it right away and have only minor problems if any. And for some it's a struggle from day 1 and remains that way for months and even years.

I've been at it for over 4 months and while my numbers are good and my mask is comfortable...I still experience some insomnia and fragmented sleep.
Marcus wrote: I would suppose that there is a correspondence in how you feel with your AHI numbers?
As you read and learn, you'll find that this isn't completely true. Too much importance is put on the number. How you feel is equally important. I've seen people feel better with higher AHIs. Depends on the nature of the apneas...how long they are, are they CAs or OAs and so on.

It would be great if everything was formulaic and all we had to do is to dial the machine in to the titrated pressures and oila!...instant success. But unfortunately it's much more complex then that.

Good luck on the decision you face...and if you do decide to quit CPAP, if symptoms worsen, you can always resume it.
Jamis

Cindy Lou Who
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Re: Should I continue with BiPap Therapy - longish post

Post by Cindy Lou Who » Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:05 pm

I don't want to discourage you, but it took three months for me to start feeling better. The first month there was one day that was glorious...was awake all day, could remember everything, performed great at work! Second month there were several. By the end of the third month the "brain fog" finally began to lift for good! "Rooster" posted a study he'd read that it does take three months for the brain cells to recover.... The Important thing is that they do!
Please hang in there. You deserve great sleep: push your Dr's to help you find it!
Cindy

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MarcusCicero
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Re: Should I continue with BiPap Therapy - longish post

Post by MarcusCicero » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:36 am

Cindy Lou Who wrote:I don't want to discourage you, but it took three months for me to start feeling better. The first month there was one day that was glorious...was awake all day, could remember everything, performed great at work! Second month there were several. By the end of the third month the "brain fog" finally began to lift for good! "Rooster" posted a study he'd read that it does take three months for the brain cells to recover.... The Important thing is that they do!
Please hang in there. You deserve great sleep: push your Dr's to help you find it!
Cindy
Thanks, Cindy Lou. Actually that's very encouraging and just the sort of thing I need to hear (as one waits for something positive to happen), so thank you for the kind encouragement. It's really appreciated.

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