What does UARS look like in ResScan?

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Marcman
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What does UARS look like in ResScan?

Post by Marcman » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:45 am

If I suspected UARS (and I'm waiting for another sleep doctor appointment to explore this), what would I look for in ResScan?

My brief history: I went to a sleep doc a year ago, because I was fatigued and sleep apnea runs in my family. When filling out the Epworth test, I recall that I answered yes to questions about being tired but no to questions about falling asleep during the day. In fact, after looking over my answers, the sleep doc asked me if I wanted to "reconsider some of my answers", given that my answers might exclude me from insurance coverage for PSG and CPAP. I had a little feeling of uneasiness with the doctor for influencing me, but I did tweak my answers a tad, because I thought OSA was a strong possibility and I wanted the PSG to find out. After a PSG, he diagnosed me with moderate OSA and scheduled a CPAP titration. On the titration, the sleep tech told me that they had some trouble finding a pressure that got rid of the apneas. Nevertheless, the doctor settled on 13, which was the last pressure they tried (and not for very long). I've been using my S9 AutoSet faithfully for almost a year, sometimes on the prescribed CPAP pressure of 13, sometimes playing with APAP. Most of the time I used a Swift FX. For the last week or two, I've been using a borrowed Quattro FX, because I was noticing (with the help of others on this forum, documented in another thread) that my leak numbers were fairly high. Anyway, close to a year of CPAP and I don't think I could say that I feel much better. In fact, I recently visited a psychiatrist, because I was worried about problems that I was having with motivation, attention, and memory. The psychiatrist found some problems with the "delayed recall" aspect of my short-term memory and encouraged me to revisit the sleep apnea to see if it was being treated effectively.

I am trying to schedule an appointment with my original sleep doctor, but I am having problems simply getting him and his office to return my calls. I might just give up on him and try to go to Stanford or another doctor in my area that appears to care more (my friend has a doc that pored over the data on his SD card, whereas my doc never asked for the card). I am pretty frustrated by the lack of attention.

In the meantime, I am trying to do some self-diagnosis and try whatever I can do myself to get better quality sleep. After listening to Dr. Steven Park's recent teleseminar, I was intrigued by the concept of UARS, since I am fatigued but not sleepy and because I seem like I might have a somewhat CPAP-resistant problem. I started looking at flow and flow limitations in ResScan for the first time and I don't know quite what to make of it. I do see moments in the night where the flow limitation graph goes fairly high and often the flow graph looks flattened or jagged.

Here's a snippet of a recent night. I'm wondering if folks can comment on whether there's something bad enough that I should print this out and show it to whatever doctor I end up seeing:

Image

To me it looks like at least 5 minutes of flow with pretty flattened peaks and very few events logged by the machine. Is this what UARS looks like?

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Marcman
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Re: What does UARS look like in ResScan?

Post by Marcman » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:12 am

Bump.

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Marcman
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Re: What does UARS look like in ResScan?

Post by Marcman » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:01 am

I hope I'm not overloading folks with too much information. Last night's ResScan graph was even more interesting:

Image

I have my machine set to APAP 13 to 20, on the theory that I might need higher pressure to treat flow limitations that are not quite apneas or hypopneas.

Somewhere around 3:48am, my flow seems to get really shallow. The machine logs a 14 second obstructive apnea and then the flow line starts to have flat peaks with small amplitudes and the flow limitation graph line climbs. The machine ratchets the pressure up to 17 and above and only after that does the flow limitation line start to decline and the flow line becomes more rounded. But then at around 3:51, the flow becomes really weird again and there are a bunch of central apneas.

This seems to suggest that I might need a really high pressure to nip the flow limitations, but then that pressure is so high that it starts causing other problems like centrals.

If this is the case, I wonder how a doctor would approach treating this?

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archangle
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Re: What does UARS look like in ResScan?

Post by archangle » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:48 pm

Don't panic over the word "central".

How many "centrals" did you have during the night? How many seconds were you not breathing for each one? How long were you not breathing during any minute, 5 minutes, hour, etc.? How much harm can that period of not breathing do you?

Before you panic over the machine flagging x "centrals," be sure you look at the data and see what it really saw.

I understand that some people don't consider it a central apnea unless you have an SPO2 desaturation at the same time, and you don't have that data.

Before you panic or you let your doctor or DME panic, be sure someone really evaluates the data correctly.

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Marcman
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Re: What does UARS look like in ResScan?

Post by Marcman » Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:30 pm

I'm not too worried about centrals. When my pressure is high, they seem to dominate my AHI but my AHI rarely goes over 3.

Of more interest to me is UARS since the machine doesn't give you a nice count of those.

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archangle
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Re: What does UARS look like in ResScan?

Post by archangle » Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:56 pm

A definitive UARS diagnosis may require a special sleep test with a pressure probe stuck down your throat. Some other techniques can be used, but are less definitive.

I don't know if it shows up in any useful way on a flow volume or pressure measurement like a CPAP machine can record.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_airw ... e_syndrome

I personally wonder if UARS is just a convenient difficult to prove or disprove category that's sometimes used as a dumping ground for difficult cases. It sounds better to say "maybe it's UARS" than to admit "I don't know."

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dkdc alias

Re: What does UARS look like in ResScan?

Post by dkdc alias » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:37 pm

Hmm - my doctor said they test for all that - but I am nor sure where to find it on my sleep study. I could see the machine not telling you, but a sleep study done in the last couple years should have that data. Anyone know what to look at?

DKDC (alias)

Re: What does UARS look like in ResScan?

Post by DKDC (alias) » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:44 pm

And for the SIG police - I would rather not sign in each time I use this particular computer that has high security settings.

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avi123
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Re: What does UARS look like in ResScan?

Post by avi123 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:11 pm

Marcman,

I see nothing unusual in both of your charts. As I understand it, the S9Autoset, besides the snore does not show the other symptoms of UAR which is defined per arcangel’s link as: Clinical presentation, Patients present with snoring and excessive daytime somnolence. Hypotension is likely to be present.[1] Also, fatigue, cognitive impairment, unrefreshing sleep, frequent awakenings, and chronic pain may be present. UARS is often misdiagnosed as Fibromyalgia or similar disorders.[2] Guilleminault et al. write that up to 75% of adult patients with sleepwalking have UARS.

Overall, compared to me, you have very few events during the 6 hours of sleep (per your first chart).

Your 2nd chart shows only a few minutes of sleep when the pressure started to rise. But we don’t know for how long. The S9 Autoset raises the pressure after it encounters snore, obstructive apneas and hypopneas and other flow limitations and keeps it raised for quite a few minutes. When it encounter central apneas and hypopneas and senses that the airway is open, it keeps the pressure as is but slowly reduces it. This machine does not react fast as the ASVs do. See here in the lowest trace in Fig 4, pg 4 how slow it reacts by lowering the pressure after meeting a few obstructive apneas:

http://www.resmed.com/us/assets/documen ... -paper.pdf

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archangle
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Re: What does UARS look like in ResScan?

Post by archangle » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:49 pm

dkdc alias wrote:Hmm - my doctor said they test for all that - but I am nor sure where to find it on my sleep study. I could see the machine not telling you, but a sleep study done in the last couple years should have that data. Anyone know what to look at?
Unless they stuck something down your throat, they didn't do the definitive test for UARS. I'm suspicious that UARS is becoming a popular and profitable diagnosis so lots of people look at some very vague indications and diagnose UARS instead of doing a real diagnosis.

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DKDC (alias)

Re: What does UARS look like in ResScan?

Post by DKDC (alias) » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:04 pm

I thought Guilleminault said in Dr Park's recent interview that that was one way, or an old way to test for UARS. Maybe I am not remembering well.

So, my sleep Dr was ignorant or lazy or just doesn't test for UARS? Likely. I guess most of us are left to our own research to see if we have it or not. My apnea index was pretty low and AHI only 13.7 but the study noted un-refreshing sleep among other things.

Thanks for the input. Hope I didn't hijack the thread too much.

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Re: What does UARS look like in ResScan?

Post by Marcman » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:16 am

Dr. Park has said that measuring nasal airway pressure with a nasal cannula has been shown to correlate very closely with the much more difficult esophagal manometer test.

Honestly, I can't remember whether I had a cannula during my sleep study. I was rigged up with a ton of the standard stuff, though I don't think anything in my nose though I could be wrong. I will ask the doctor when I see him on Monday whether he measures for UARS. On my polysomnography report, it says that my RDI equaled my AHI, which seems to imply 0 RERAs, although I wonder if that means they detected no RERAs because they have no way of detecting them.

As for the use of UARS as a catch-all diagnosis, while it sounds like it *could* be used that way, my impression is that that has not been the case, because many doctors don't know about or don't believe in the existence of UARS or don't look for it, because it is often not covered by insurance. Dr. Park and Dr. Krakow seem to give the impression in their writings that they think UARS is underappreciated and underdiagnosed.

As for me, all I care about is feeling better. I don't care whether the doc calls it UARS or not, as long as they can prescribe me something that makes me feel rested.

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napstress
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Re: What does UARS look like in ResScan?

Post by napstress » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:43 am

DKDC (alias) wrote:So, my sleep Dr was ignorant or lazy or just doesn't test for UARS? Likely. I guess most of us are left to our own research to see if we have it or not. My apnea index was pretty low and AHI only 13.7 but the study noted un-refreshing sleep among other things.
Because most insurance companies won't cover CPAP therapy for UARS, and the treatment for both of them is CPAP therapy, anyway, your doctor probably spared you a particularly gruesome test. I took me a great deal of reading between the lines of my sleep and titration studies—during which my doctor seemed to be alternating between saying I have and do not have sleep apnea—to discover that she believes I have UARS. I never even heard of UARS until this forum. Finally I asked the doctor directly if I had UARS and she said yes, but she could not write it in my studies b/c insurance doesn't cover treatment for it.

This is what I have gathered so far, but I am just beginning my UARS odyssey, so those who know more, please correct me if I am mistaken:

Some general indicators distinguishing those who have UARS from those who have apnea:
-low AHI (but high RDI) on night of sleep study. (People with apnea have a high AHI)
-blood oxygen level didn't drop very much on sleep study (Apnea causes desats.)
-tend to have low blood pressure (Those with apnea tend to have high blood pressure).

It seems that if you don't have apnea, but you do have some of the following symptoms (some of which apnea patients share) you may have UARS:
-long, narrow face, nose, and/or neck; may have had more teeth than usual removed b/c of small mouth
-high score on Epworth Sleepiness Scale
-cold hands and feet
-misdiagnosed with Fibromyalgia or CFS by PCP
-chronic anxiety/stress (Sympathetic Nervous System chronically engaged)
-prefer not to sleep on back
-not necessarily overweight
-chronic insomnia
-EEG findings associated with un-refreshing sleep
-feeling tired/sleepy/exhasted

Some people put both conditions under one umbrella: Sleep-Disturbed Breathing (SDB).

I alternate between feeling relieved that there is a label for what I have and to see so many disparate pieces of the puzzle fall neatly into place with one diagnosis vs. feeling suspicious that, like archangle says, a UARS diagnosis is a "miscellaneous" box for people who don't have apnea, but have some sort of Sleep-Disordered Breathing issue the treatment for which still stumps sleep specialists.

I am alarmed to have heard Dr. Park respond to patients saying CPAP therapy didn't work for them by saying, "You didn't try hard enough." That may or may not be true. I imagine that response didn't sit well with those who gave it a sincere effort and found creative ways to overcome its many challenges. And even those who didn't make every, single effort at it from an absolute, objective standpoint probably did as much as they were willing. Which is enough. It's not like popping a pill. I'd be much happier to hear him say, "I don't know why it didn't work for you." The more I listen to information about UARS, the more I am hearing a subtext of "We don't know." I'm OK with doctors not knowing the answers to some questions. I'm OK with medical research being in its infancy. I would love to have definitive solutions so I can feel better, but I can understand and accept that the medical world just doesn't have them yet. What I cannot tolerate is doctors dodging honestly saying they don't know, and worse, doing so by blaming their patients.
Epworth Sleepiness Scale: 14
Diagnostic study: overall AHI: 0.2 events/hour; overall RDI: 45 events/hour
Titration study: AHI: 6.1; RDI: 27; CPAP pressures: 5-8cm

Not-tired behind my eyes and with a clear, cool head!

DK DC

Re: What does UARS look like in ResScan?

Post by DK DC » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:27 am

So, if RDI equals AHI there is probably little chance of UARS? If RDI is significantly higher than AHI - much better chance. Something is disturbing sleep and it isn't simply apneas or hypopneas.

My study did include a nasal cannula type sensor - so I guess my sleep Doc did test for UARS - as he said he would.