Insomnia: Melatonin + 5-HTP + Tryptophan

[Jeffster]

Ambien and Melatonin....works for me. Most times skip the Ambien.

I asked my doctor for Ambien last time I saw her on 4/22/2011. But she came back with a short but powerful and emotionally firm statement about how the Ambien type meds were only meant to be used for 7 days, people get addicted to them, and there are side effects. She said I should increase my trazodone dose if needed...I backed down...here's hoping the tryptophan works well for me, when it finally arrives.

What is your melatonin dose, lars4life?

[Jeffster]

This morning's reading:
AHI 1.5
Total AI .9
Central AI .9

Maybe about an extra 45 minutes more mask time than usual, like an extra 45 minute sleep segment, which is nice.

Taking the pills at lights out seemed to work to in that it was 5 hours until my first big wake up, instead of 3 o 4.

Does bringing serotonin levels back up help the adrenals calm down?

[Otter]

I think the adrenals do need some more calming down. I've probably been flooded with cortisol for months. I've read that sleep deprivation can cause this.

Nice feedback loop, eh?

Does bringing serotonin levels back up help the adrenals calm down?

I'm not sure. Sleeping without apnea certainly should. It's not cheap, but this stuff seems to be helping me as well.
http://www.gaiaherbs.com/products/detai ... al-Health-

[Jeffster]

The tryptophan arrived arrived yesterday so I tried using it last night for the first time. I had a horrible problem come up, but I can't say that the trptophan had anything to do with causing it.

Lights out was right around 11 PM as usual. I took the tryptophan then, one 1000 mg pill. I fell off to sleep within 10 minutes, which is really good for me. I woke at 12:10 AM then 1:20 AM, fell back both times quickly, but at 4 AM I got hit with a growing pain in the middle of my spine, a dull but strong ache. I'd say the pain was in the vertebrae right around the diaphragm level, or where the bottom of the rib cage joins the spine. It made breathing difficult, since that made the pain worse. On a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being lightest 10 being strongest, I'd call the pain a 7. I couldn't get comfortable again, so I got up to walk around. I took pain mendications and a trazodone. I tried sitting in my easy chair in the living room, but that was too painful as well. I did some stretching to try to loosen up the back area. I found I could stand by the back of my chair, lean over and rest on my elbows, and that took away some of the pain and I could take deeper breaths easier. That told me I wasn't having breathing problem, so I could wait a little while longer to see if I needed to got to the hospital.

After about an hour, by 5 AM or so, the pain was mostly passed, and I went back to bed with the mask back on.

I can't remember this type of pain waking me up like this before. I have to guess, somehow I pinched a nerve in my sleep? I hadn't done any heavy lifting or any other activity out of the ordinary yesterday so it is a mystery to me why this pain came on like that in my sleep.

It also messed up my test of the tryptophan, unless somehow taking the tryptophan contributed to this happening? Does anyone know if that is possible? Right now I''m thinking it has to be a coincidence, and I should try the tryptophan again tonight. Any thoughts anyone?

[Otter]

I can see two ways the tryptophan could contribute to that. You might have been too busy making up your sleep debt to move when you needed to. Also, your stomach is in the area you're describing. Many of the sensations people attribute to their stomachs come from the small intestine. Actual stomach pain sometimes feels like it's in your back, right in the area you're talking about. And though it never bothered me at all, some folks do report nausea with tryptophan. The same is true of 5HTP, but you might react to one and not the other. I hope it's not the tryptophan, though, because it really seemed to help you sleep. OTOH, not being able to take tryptophan would be much better than something that will land you in the hospital. May tonight be better.

You might try taking 200mg of 5HTP instead of 1000mg of tryptophan and see if that gets you the same benefits.

[fadedgirl]

I would only take one of these 3 at a time or per day and never combine them. L-Tryptophan is seemingly the preferable supplement as with it the body regulates the amount of serotonin it produces whereas 5-HTP skips this important regulation step so the body has little, if any, control over the amount of serotonin it produces. The body also has other important uses for L-Tryptophan.

That said, I've taken 5-HTP for a couple of years with impressive results for mood (although I have had to constantly adjust dosing and sometimes stop) and only recently began researching 5-HTP & L-Tryptophan. I just switched over to taking L-Tryptophan instead of 5-HTP last night, so I will be evaluating how I do on this over the coming weeks.

After I took it (I am taking the powdered form right now but will be receiving Swanson Typropure capsules shortly -- one of the only makers of L-Tryptophan pills that don't have additives or preservatives) I googled "L-Tryptophan + breathing" and some interesting things came up. Apparently there have been studies done and treatments with L-Tryptophan, in conjunction with other meds, have proven to reduce events in those (and English Bulldogs, ha) with Obstructive Sleep Apnea Hypopnea Syndrome.

I thought "How interesting!. Maybe a serotonin deficiency or malfunction is why I have sleep apnea, too." I just found these sites a few hours ago and was exhausted, so it merits further review, but has anybody else seen or looked into this theory? Apparently serotonin plays a 'significant role in upper airway collapse'. Quite intriguing.

[Jeffster]

Last night I felt tired at bedtime, so I decided to try a test of not taking any sleep aid meds and see how well I did, per the advice I've gotten here from you, Otter, and others, if you're tired enough then don't take anything. Also, the memory of how painful my back had been the previous night that I took Tryptophan was part of the decision process to try a night without anything.

After lights out around 11PM, I fell off to sleep rather soon again, maybe 10 minutes, which is just great for me. I had two or so wake ups where I decided don't look at the clock, just relax, and fell back to sleep right away. But then a wake up happened that left me feeling less than sleepy coming out of a vivid dream, so I looked, and it was 4 AM. I thought about getting up to take a 5-HTP, or Trazodone, but stubbornly decided to let the no sleep drugs experiment continue. I believe I drifted in and out of sleep for the next 3 hours. I never looked at the clock again in any of the more awake moments, just kept my eyes closed and asked for sleep, until it felt like I might be awake enough to get up, and that was 7:20 AM. I should add that I have been wearing an eye mask at night for months now that totally keeps out the light.

In retrospect, I think I should have tried taking a 100 mg 5-HTP at 4 AM, as I feel sleep deprived today, and 5-HTP may have given me more sleep, and maybe deep sleep as well. I'm very wary of taking the Tryptophan again, but the 5-HDT did seem to be helping. I think I ought to try the Tryptophan again, I just need to recover a bit more from the memory of the back pain I got first night I tried it, get my courage back up.

fadedgirl, I would love to learn about your results trying the L-Tryptophan in place of 5-HTP. Thanks for sharing your experience, which seems very helpful for what I am going through. Please post back here in this thread if you like.

This Saturday I'll be taking a road trip vacation for a week, and I'll be sure to have all these meds with me in my travels. Keeping the experiments going on the road seems scary to me, especially after two night's ago experience, but leaving without them seems even scarier. Hopefully I will get positive results on the road. Where we have Internet access along the way I will try to update these notes and look for more post. Thank you one and all for your help and advice.

[Otter]

I would only take one of these 3 at a time or per day and never combine them. L-Tryptophan is seemingly the preferable supplement as with it the body regulates the amount of serotonin it produces whereas 5-HTP skips this important regulation step so the body has little, if any, control over the amount of serotonin it produces. The body also has other important uses for L-Tryptophan.

Fadedgirl, do you have an authoritative source for this info. I've read this too, but when I asked my doctor she waved her hand dismissively and said that the conversion from 5HTP to serotonin was regulated too. And none of the web pages I found claiming tryptophan was safer for this reason discussed the science or cited sources. OTOH, no one is right 100% of the time.

[Otter]

Last night I felt tired at bedtime, so I decided to try a test of not taking any sleep aid meds and see how well I did, per the advice I've gotten here from you, Otter, and others, if you're tired enough then don't take anything.

I think I actually said "sleepy" rather than "tired". This is an important distinction to make. If something is reducing your melatonin levels, such as serotonin deficiency or bright lights, you can be completely exhausted and not be sleepy. And if you take supplemental melatonin when you're not tired, for instance, because you've flown to London and don't want to be up all night, you can be sleepy even if you're somewhat rested. If you are sleepy, that tells you you've got plenty of melatonin, and more won't help. OTOH, if you are tired but not sleepy, that tells you something is either preventing you from making melatonin or is causing it to be metabolized before it can do its work.

How'd things go over the weekend?

[Jeffster]

Last night I felt tired at bedtime, so I decided to try a test of not taking any sleep aid meds and see how well I did, per the advice I've gotten here from you, Otter, and others, if you're tired enough then don't take anything.

I think I actually said "sleepy" rather than "tired". This is an important distinction to make. If something is reducing your melatonin levels, such as serotonin deficiency or bright lights, you can be completely exhausted and not be sleepy. And if you take supplemental melatonin when you're not tired, for instance, because you've flown to London and don't want to be up all night, you can be sleepy even if you're somewhat rested. If you are sleepy, that tells you you've got plenty of melatonin, and more won't help. OTOH, if you are tired but not sleepy, that tells you something is either preventing you from making melatonin or is causing it to be metabolized before it can do its work.

How'd things go over the weekend?

That's a good clarification, Otter, between the "sleepy" state and the "tired"state. I meant to use the "sleepy" one.

I'm still on the vacation road trip, checking in from a hotel computer. I've been using 100 mg 5-HTP + 750 mcg Melatonin + 50 mg Trazodone at lights out on this trip. I believe it is helping me get to sleep sooner. I may be getting as many night time wake ups but fall back to sleep sooner for overall better sleep.

I left the L-Tryptophan at home intentionally, not wanting to chance a bad reaction while traveling. I will give it a another try when I get back home in a few days. I'll let you all know how that goes as well.

Again, I appreciate any and all support in this effort as I try to gain more restful, restorative sleep. My AHI numbers each night on this trip have been better than usual, e.g. last night AHI .7, AI total .5, Central total .4. By these numbers I sometimes think that I should be feeling better than I do, but I know it is not that simple.

[fadedgirl]

I would only take one of these 3 at a time or per day and never combine them. L-Tryptophan is seemingly the preferable supplement as with it the body regulates the amount of serotonin it produces whereas 5-HTP skips this important regulation step so the body has little, if any, control over the amount of serotonin it produces. The body also has other important uses for L-Tryptophan.

Fadedgirl, do you have an authoritative source for this info. I've read this too, but when I asked my doctor she waved her hand dismissively and said that the conversion from 5HTP to serotonin was regulated too. And none of the web pages I found claiming tryptophan was safer for this reason discussed the science or cited sources. OTOH, no one is right 100% of the time.

Nope, although I haven't tried recently. Just read it online about 1000 times (which is why I said "seemingly"). It could be complete BS, which makes me rather angry as its the only reason I stopped the 5-HTP and tried the LT again. I like hearing what your doc said about it.

I can say that L-Tryptophan did absolutely nothing good for me. A few nights taking it I woke up around 3am and was unable to get back to sleep the rest of the night. Downright painful. It also was a disaster in the mood department. After about 8 days I threw it in the trash and went back to taking 5-HTP and noticed instant improvement in mood and mental clarity. This is probably the 5th time that I have tried LT, I won't be bothering with it again.

So now after this little experiment I hypothesize that perhaps my brain just does not do the LT to 5-HTP step(s), hence 5-HTP works wonders for me and LT does nothing.

Also, I found out that someone I know has been taking 5-HTP and melatonin for several years and they are very happy, and have had no problems, with that combination. They only take 3mg of Melatonin at night. Did you ask your doc if it is OK to combine? How are you doing with all of this lately? Thanks!

[FizzyWater]

I will send my doctor an email with the updated info.

I know this is off topic, but I'm so jealous you have a doctor who'll let you contact him/her via email. Unless you're making an appointment, mine doesn't even answer the phone - you get directed to leave voicemail messages...

[Jeffster]

fadedgirl wrote, "Did you ask your doc if it is OK to combine? How are you doing with all of this lately? Thanks!"

Thank you for your updated info fadedgirl! It is good to know that you know someone who has combined the melatonin and 5-HTP at night for years and is still happy with it. I have continued on this path, and have not tried the L-Tryptophan again yet. I as just getting to the bottom of my 1st jar of 5-HTP and when I used it up I thought I'd give the L-T a try. After reading you results, I'm not so eager to try! I never did get a direct answer from my doc on combining the two, rather I got redirected to other therapy, outside my area as well. I am not too pleased with my medical support at the moment.

I'm feeling sleepy so I should sign off to get ready for bed, but I will revisit here soon and post more info.

[Jeffster]

Hi all, an update to say I have been using L-Tryptophan (L-T) 1000 mg each of the past two nights in place of the 5-HTP 100 mg. I'm still including the other two meds along with it at lights out time, Trazodone 50 mg and Melatonin 750 mcg. One other med I am taking an hour before lights out is Fluticasone Propionate Nasal Spray, one spray each nostril. In the morning I am taking Atenolol 12.5 mg (a 25 mg pill cut in half) and a multi-vitamin Centrum Silver.

I am not experiencing the stomach area pain, discomfort, breathing problems I had happen the very first time I tried the L-T as reported in this thread, so that is good. I cannot say yet if I am sleeping or feeling any better or worse for L-T in place of 5-HTP. I do feel that the 5-HTP was helping, along with the Melatonin, or at least I did improve some while using it.

I wanted to give this update, even though my results are inconclusive. Overall, I may be getting more restful sleep, although I still get a "big wake up" about half way through the night and then it's fragmented sleep segments after that. And I think I have less racy conditions during the day, though panic attacks can still happen over even small things. And I am still working through a very large stressful event in my life affecting my anxiety and depression levels. Through it all, I remain cautiously optimistic that I will improve.

My doctor canceled my appointment referral to the local sleep doctor when he told her it would be better for me to take CBT, but then the catch is that they don't offer CBT in the local sleep clinic near me; I'd have to go out of area for at least a 100 mile round trip, and I don't want to do that on a regular basis. I did keep reading about it here on this forum though, and in some of the linked sites, so I have learned some more about it and am letting it influence me. The other referral from my doctor in place of seeing a sleep doctor is to go to Psychiatric Services. They are at least nearer to home, ironically in the clinic where the sleep doctor is that I requested being able to see. I keep thinking if I can get my sleep problems fixed than everything else will get better. My doctor seems to think if they work on my depression than my sleep will improve. I am reading "Sound Sleep Sound Mind" by Dr. Krakow and had read him say you have to work on both sides of this. But I did visit with the psych folks back in January, one visit, and they did give me Trazodone which has been helping me fall to sleep, just not stay asleep all night. However they also put me right back on an SSRI, Celexa this time, for my depression and anxiety. As I had worked so hard to wean myself off Paxil last year, I wasn't too happy with getting back on another one so I stopped taking it after a few days. So, that's some of what has led me to be trying out the Melatonin, 5-HTP, and L-T, in part inspired threads I have read here.

I welcome any and all thoughts from other forum members on any of these topics as they affect our abilities to get the restful, rejuvenating sleep we all desire.

I should note that exercising is tremendous help, as I have also read said in threads here. This week I'm not getting as much as I'd like, but expect to be back on track in a couple of days.

FizzyWater, good luck with that unresponsive doctor of yours! The email thing is cool, but has its limitations, like a small amount of characters allowed per message and just text, no attachments. Also, sometimes an assistant may respond with less info than desired, etc. But it is better to have the email connection than not, IMO.

[Otter]

So now after this little experiment I hypothesize that perhaps my brain just does not do the LT to 5-HTP step(s), hence 5-HTP works wonders for me and LT does nothing.

It does make sense that if something was blocking the conversion from tryptopahn to 5HTP, supplemental 5HTP would do wonders for you.

Also, I found out that someone I know has been taking 5-HTP and melatonin for several years and they are very happy, and have had no problems, with that combination. They only take 3mg of Melatonin at night. Did you ask your doc if it is OK to combine?

I didn't ask about that, but I don't see how those two could be a problem. 3mg is a lot of melatonin, and as I said before, I don't think taking a pill containing as much as your body makes in a whole day is wise, but even if it all gets converted back to serotonin, that's not going to make a significant difference to your serotonin levels. And your body won't convert serotonin to melatonin if it already has enough melatonin.

Years ago I offered a girlfriend a tab of melatonin to help her sleep, and she declined saying, "it wipes me out the next day." A few weeks later, I was helping her clean out her bathroom and found her bottle of melatonin. 500mg per tab. Milligrams, not micrograms. I had 3mg tablets at the time, 100 pills in a bottle. One of her melatonin capsules was more than my entire bottle. But nothing happened to her except that she was a bit groggy the next day. Although one should be careful taking hormones, I think my girlfriend's survival demonstrates the low toxicity of melatonin.

How are you doing with all of this lately?

Somewhat better. I'll try to post some details in the next few days.