Variance in AHI readings

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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Pugsy
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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by Pugsy » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:01 pm

avi123 wrote:Hi, your Events are almost like my. But your flow limitation and snore graphs are more profound. I would not give you any "advice" about setting your machine as some posters might. Regretfully, there are a few Sleep Doc impostors on the forum spreading instructions. I would stay away.

Do you have any other ailments besides the OSA?

EPR is a COMFORT feature. Reducing EPR does not increase the main prescribed pressure which remains unchanged. We aren't increasing the pressure but reducing the EPR would increase the overall average pressure to be closer to the prescribed pressure since about half the time is spent during exhale pressures when it is reduced. An EPR of 3 means a drop of 3 cm in pressure for half the night. Duh.... drop the EPR to 2 and the reduction during exhale is only 2 cm for half the night.. So the overall average pressure is a wee bit higher but not because we raised the main pressure, we only reduce the EPR pressure drop.

It won't affect the centrals but might help with the other events without raising the prescribed pressure.

Avi, Your own therapy isn't optimal yet you refuse to do anything about it and continual try to cast doubts on what members offer here. We aren't playing doctor. We are answering questions and if you would bother to read what I said, I said that the OP needed to bring up the centrals with their doctor and not to go making huge changes right now. It hurts NOTHING to change the EPR.

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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by gproduce » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:05 pm

I am new and also have a question? What is AI,AHI and HI?

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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by sleeptiger » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:09 pm

Thanks for the feedback. The sleep report mentions"no abnormalities" in the ECG test. Hopefully this means the old ticker is still "good".
BTW I'm a 52 yr old male, apart from the recently diagnosed OSA and being a bad snorer for the past 30+ years, I don't suffer from other health problems. My BP is typically 125/75...used to be 138/85 before CPAP therapy.
Avi, thanks for the link. I've checked it out but there's so much of medical jargon that I can't understand.
My Obstructive Apneas or Hyponeas are shown below

Image

I guess I'm trying to figure out why my AHI fluctuates from night to night , even on fixed settings.
Again, many thanks for the feedback. I'll try to be politically correct and call them feedback instead of advice.

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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by avi123 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:51 pm

Hi, so your Apnea + Hypopnea dropped from 66.8 at the test to about 10.6 now. Not bad!
But sill, because of those cyclical air flow obstructions and the (very low) oxygen saturation (hi De-saturation) would prompt me to see an Internist MD, Cardiologist MD, etc. , and show them your test results. Most of those MDs are familiar with reading your Sleep Study results.

About the AHI variation from day to day, I agree with the last poster here:

http://s7.zetaboards.com/Apnea_Board/topic/8323066/1/

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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by scrapper » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:20 pm

Avi123 has foe'd me for not usually agreeing with him, so I know he won't see this message.......you don't need another doc by any means.

Sleeptiger.....the goal is to consistently get your ahi below 5. That being said, what is normal for one person, isn't always normal for the next one. Sometimes factors like medications play into the ahi numbers. Given the information you have provided, I doubt that is or will be a problem for you.

During your study, your oxygen levels are low. Above 90-95% is the goal for oxygen sats. After you accomplish your goal of consistently getting low ahi's, acquiring an oximeter might not be a bad idea for you.

Congrats on low leaks..........one problem solved.

Keep working....use the machine faithfully.....get consistent numbers or make one change at a time and then wait 7-10 days for the numbers to shake out again.......possibly reducing the epr as pugsy shared might be a good first step.

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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by rested gal » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:27 pm

sleeptiger, I went back to an earlier topic you had posted...to refresh my swiss cheese memory about what you might have already tried, settings-wise.
viewtopic.php?p=569045#p569045

If 9 was the pressure prescribed from a PSG sleep study, and if I liked using EPR full time (and I would), I think I'd give these settings a try with a straight CPAP machine:

If I were going to use EPR "1" -- I'd set the CPAP pressure for 10.

If I were going to use EPR "2" -- I'd set the CPAP pressure for 11.

If I were going to use EPR "3" -- I'd set the CPAP pressure for 12.

If I turned EPR off or used it only during ramp, I'd leave the pressure set at 9.

If one of those combos didn't seem to reduce the high number of obstructive apneas you're seeing fairly often on your data, I'd raise the CPAP pressure another full cm or two, for any of those EPR settings.

And if raising the pressure more didn't take care of it, I'd start thinking that GERD, or allergies, or something that could cause inflammation/swelling of some area of the airway on some nights might be causing a problem that CPAP has difficulty pushing aside at all. Then, I'd get a good ENT to scope it out.
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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by sleeptiger » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:33 pm

Yes i agree ....66.8 down to 10.6 is a big improvement. Now the trick is how to get to below 5.0.
The sleep study was done at a major sleep centre under the care of a qualified and experienced MD, who said, after getting the results, that I should start cpap therapy right away. But after hooking up with cpap 2 months ago, I've got no idea how my Oxygen saturation levels are as I don't have an Oximeter.

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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by Pugsy » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:41 pm

You do show a small number of centrals on the initial sleep study. Most of the other stuff is pretty well what we might expect.
Little worse on your back and in REM which is very common.

Just doing a small change in EPR which is a comfort feature that sometimes when reduced will decrease those numbers. Let's see if we can get the obstructive events reduced and then see what is left with the centrals. Sometimes they fade away or become very rare with time. Sometimes they warrant further discussion with the doctor.

You already have shown significant improvement but like Scrapper said we like to have that AHI below 5 or at least to the point where we see mainly centrals then we know we can't do much better for the obstructive events and have to determine how important those centrals are.

When is your next follow up visit scheduled?

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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by Pugsy » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:48 pm

gproduce wrote:I am new and also have a question? What is AI,AHI and HI?
wiki/index.php/Category:CPAP_Definitions

AHI/RAI Scale is a measurement of both the Apnea/Hypopnea Index (QHI) and the Respiratory Arousal Index. If a person has less than 5 events per hour then that person's AHI/RAI would be 0 and that person would not have apnea. 5 -15 events/hour = (mild); 15-30 events/hour = (moderate); >30 events/hour = (severe).

AHI (Apnea Hypopnea Index) is the number of apneas and hypopneas per hour. Or an index for sleep apnea. 5-20 mild, 21-50 moderate, above 50 severe. Learn more here

Hypopnea: A respiratory episode where there is partial obstruction of the airway lasting greater than 10 seconds. Also called partial apnea or hypo-apnea.

Apnea is the cessation of airflow for 10 seconds or greater.

HI average number of Hyponeas per hour

AI average number of Apneas per hour

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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by sleeptiger » Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:55 pm

Dear gals and guys,

Thanks for all your great responses and support. Like i said earlier, i'll try reducing the epr to 1.0 tonite. I don't have a next scheduled appointment with the sleep doctor. After the sleep study, he directed me to the Resmed vendor and that was the last I saw of him. This was back in mid Jan.

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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by Pugsy » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:04 pm

sleeptiger wrote:I don't have a next scheduled appointment with the sleep doctor. After the sleep study, he directed me to the Resmed vendor and that was the last I saw of him. This was back in mid Jan.
I assume you have a family primary care physician or whomever referred you to the sleep doctor? I would start by bringing the centrals to his/her attention should they persist. It's not an emergency so don't panic. Just something that warrants your being aware of them and watching to see how things go. They might just fade away or reduce in numbers to the point that they don't matter. No need to rush out tomorrow to get an appointment.

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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by rested gal » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:10 pm

Pugsy is giving great suggestions. The only thing I'd offer is that I don't see a problem with centrals at all...not on the sleep study nor on the ResScan report.

Yes, a few centrals were noted on both, but so few that I wouldn't give them a second thought.

At another apnea board:
http://www.apneasupport.org/viewtopic.php?p=24677

In a reply titled "Nope" sleepydave (RRT, RPSGT and manager of an accredited sleep center) responds to honda's question:

honda wrote:
"Thanks for the comments, one other question though, do the 4 central apneas have any significance ?"


"None whatsoever.
sleepydave"


sleepydave's nicknames on cpaptalk are "deltadave" "StillAnotherGuest"(SAG) "Muffy" and "NotMuffy"

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Also, this from a lady who has almost purely Central Sleep Apnea (rare, instead of having Obstructive Sleep Apnea) and contributed a great deal of well researched info in her posts about "centrals":

viewtopic.php?p=15061#p15061
christinequilts wrote:
noahmckinnon wrote:
Does that mean that turning over in one's sleep can cause an actual central apnea or that the motion of turning over somehow gives a false reading of one?
THink about when you exercise or concentrate hard- if your not aware you can hold your breath which is essentionally central apnea. Turning over in your sleep is basically like an exercise- you go from doing nothing to moving. If you were to have your breathing monitored while you are awake you would see a lot of 'central' events. During a sleep study the bands can misread yoru breathing effort- especially when you move & scorers can misinterpret so there is also a possibility that some of your events could be incorrectly labeled too.

Oveall it seems like to me a lot of people panic when they hear they a central event. It probably has to do with the whole 'forgeting to breath'- O-My-Gosh- how could I forget to do something that basic! In reality is it any more scarey then having your airway blocked during an obstructive event? Both obstructive & central apneas result in not getting O2 in and disruption of sleep. You might want to check this older thread out on CSA-
(bold red emphasis, mine)
____________________________________

The "older thread" christine referred to was this one:
viewtopic.php?p=6176#p6176

Which contained another excellent post by christinequilts (as a "Guest" post.)

An excerpt from her post:
christinequilts accidentally 'guested' wrote:A lot of people get more concerned about just a few central events disproportionably so in relation to the number of obstructive. I think it probably has to do with the idea of 'forgeting to breath' versus something mechanically blocking the airway. Remembering to breath seems like such a basic function like our hearts beating but it is more similar to our eyes blinking- most of the time our eyelids are on autopilot though we make take control when needed. Maybe a better way to think of central events is as a glich in the autopilot program that thankfully the captain (you) and other members of the crew (backup systems) jump into action to correct. Central apnea events numbers are gauged the same way as obstructive with 0 to 5-10 being normal, 5-10 to 20ish being mild, 20ish to 30ish being moderate, and 30ish & over being severe. Of course like with OSA, oxygen desaturation is also taken into account in determining the severity.
(bold red emphasis, mine)
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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by Pugsy » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:26 pm

Okay Rested Gal, I will defer to your thoughts. While I didn't think these were of any great significance all I know to do is be extra cautious till they get sorted out. Remember everyone harped on me about centrals or possibles of centrals way before we got machines that showed them to us. You know me, if I doubt something if I go anyway it will be toward the cautious side. If this had been my report, I would have been much more aggressive but I don't do aggressive for someone I don't know. One or 2 yeah, but the number of these sort of stuck out.

I will learn more about centrals as we are going to see more of them. Then maybe I will be braver and more aggressive.

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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by rested gal » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:20 am

Oh, no, no, no, Pugsy...gosh no, please never defer to my thoughts. What you've been discussing with sleeptiger about centrals is well worth bringing out.

I just have a little different take on the significance of the numbers of centrals that were showing.
Neither index for central apneas looked like much to me, but that sure doesn't mean my more casual attitude about them is right.

.9 or rounding up to 1.0 on the PSG:
Image

1.7 on the ResScan data:
Image

You're doing an absolutely fine job helping sleeptiger sort through his treatment.
Please keep offering your opinion just like I offer mine, even when they differ.
Caution when advising others is never out of place. You're absolutely right about that, so do please keep doing what you do so well, in a way you're comfortable with.
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Re: Variance in AHI readings

Post by NotMuffy » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:21 am

OK, I have confusion between these 2 posts:
Pugsy wrote:EPR is a COMFORT feature. Reducing EPR does not increase the main prescribed pressure which remains unchanged. We aren't increasing the pressure but reducing the EPR would increase the overall average pressure to be closer to the prescribed pressure since about half the time is spent during exhale pressures when it is reduced. An EPR of 3 means a drop of 3 cm in pressure for half the night. Duh.... drop the EPR to 2 and the reduction during exhale is only 2 cm for half the night.. So the overall average pressure is a wee bit higher but not because we raised the main pressure, we only reduce the EPR pressure drop.

It won't affect the centrals but might help with the other events without raising the prescribed pressure.

...It hurts NOTHING to change the EPR.
rested gal wrote:sleeptiger, I went back to an earlier topic you had posted...to refresh my swiss cheese memory about what you might have already tried, settings-wise.
viewtopic.php?p=569045#p569045

If 9 was the pressure prescribed from a PSG sleep study, and if I liked using EPR full time (and I would), I think I'd give these settings a try with a straight CPAP machine:

If I were going to use EPR "1" -- I'd set the CPAP pressure for 10.

If I were going to use EPR "2" -- I'd set the CPAP pressure for 11.

If I were going to use EPR "3" -- I'd set the CPAP pressure for 12.

If I turned EPR off or used it only during ramp, I'd leave the pressure set at 9.

If one of those combos didn't seem to reduce the high number of obstructive apneas you're seeing fairly often on your data, I'd raise the CPAP pressure another full cm or two, for any of those EPR settings.
Going back to an early post re: EPR (and look at the fine lines noting the pressures):
sleepydave wrote:When the coming of Expiratory Pressure Relief (EPR) was first announced, I had some questions as to whether this modality would offer relief on active expiration only during the CPAP mode, and perhaps address the issues that other expiratory adjuncts were having, or if the drop in expiratory pressure were carried out all the way to the next inspiration, relying on inspiration as the trigger to terminate EPR, and thus essentially operate in a BiPAP mode.

The following waveform analyses were performed on the EPR mode at 10 cmH2O with an EPR setting of 3 cmH2O. The breath rate is approximately 12.

The first graph shows the breathing waveform on top, inspiration being an upward deflection and expiration downward, while the bottom graph is measuring pressure. The pressure settings are seen as faint numbers at the left of the pressure waveform. You can see that the EPR, reflected as a drop in the therapeutic pressure on the pressure waveform down to about 7 cmH2O, is carried out all the way to the point of inspiration, and the inspiratory effort therefore takes place at a sub-therapeutic pressure. The baseline pressure returns to 10 cmH2O, but not until after inspiration has begun. In other words, inspiration is the trigger to terminate EPR, and instead of a CPAP pressure of 10 cmH2O with an expiratory adjunct, we are effectively left with BiPAP of 10/7:

Image

This might not make a clinical difference if the patient ends up with the same results on BiPAP 10/7 that he would have on CPAP 10 cmH2O (which could be the case if there were only flow limitations, snores, or hypopneas). But if the new EPR-defined EPAP is below the apnea threshold, then there could be a problem.

In the second graph, the waveforms are superimposed to show more clearly that inspiration is occurring at a sub-therapeutic level:

Image

There is a time limitation associated with the termination of EPR. In the next graph, you can see how the EPR eventually terminates and returns to baseline. In this instance, the breath rate was approximately 6, so the time to EPR termination was appoximately 5 seconds. The first arrow represents EPR termination, while the second signifies patient breath:

Image

And here again, the graphs are superimposed to show the return to baseline relative to inspiration:

Image

This means that eventually, there will be a return to baseline CPAP if in fact, an apnea occurs, and at the most, only one breath would be missed. Is the net result clinically relevant? I'm not sure either way. But if you're generating negative intrathoracic pressure or creating arousals, then there could be an issue.

In re: putting EPR in the AutoSet mode, that could be an effective way to overcome this supposed shortcoming of EPR. If events were to start occurring at, in this case, "10 cmH2O of CPAP". then baseline pressure could be raised, theoretically, to "13 cmH2O of CPAP", or effectively BiPAP 13/10. Course now we're right back where we started. The only outstanding question would be if the 13/10 format was better tolerated than the straight 10.

But how would the algorithm work? If the apnea identification in AutoCPAP is 10 seconds, and the EPR terminates at (in this case) 6 seconds, how would it know to increase the CPAP (really the "EPAP" segment of EPR) to address apneas? I would assume that flow limitations would be properly addressed with CPAP increase (because you're really raising the "IPAP" segment of EPR).

As an aside, therein lies the problem once you start talking about Auto-BiPAP. Do you increase the IPAP, and keep EPAP fixed, or do you vary the EPAP as well, looking to address apneas. You're gonna need two totally separate algorithms, and they can't interfere with each other.

There are a couple of options available with EPR. It can be used during the ramp period only, which would offer significant patient comfort during a time where the perhaps the greatest period of patient difficulty occurs. After the ramp period is over, it returns to the set pressure.

Before you select full-time EPR, though, and carry EPR throughout the night, you should consider how your particular situation might respond to this modality. And I think the key to EPR, AutoCPAP with EPR (should that ever come about) and AutoBiPAP will be how apneas are addressed. You might be OK dealing with hypopneas, snores and RERAs if you're of the belief that BiPAP can properly address these issues. And that's a whole 'nother discussion.
sleepydave
And most recently, this waveform of EPR 3:
NotMuffy wrote:Pressure analysis of FOT. Same area, OA F/B CA. Note pressure increase from ~7.3 cmH2O to ~8.3 cmH2O after FOT identified the event as an OA. OA pressure profile just a smidge higher than CA profile:

Image
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