Sleep Debt...

[Mbarb]

Hi,

I wanted to start a discussion about sleep debt. For the record, I am a ~40 year old guy that was just diagnosed with Sleep Apnea. In thinking back I'm sure I've had some form of sleep apnea all my life. I've fought with micro sleeps when driving or working all my life. I had decided that these problems we just from a lack of regular sleep. Finally falling dead asleep at work and long naps after work drove me to the internet and finally my PC. I knew when I visited my PC what I had and he agreed and sent me to a ENT that specialized in Sleep Disorders. At my first appointment with the ENT doc she did a physical exam, looked me in the eye, and said, you have sleep apnea. I went for the sleep study was masked up halfway through the night. I was diagnosed at 102 AHI.

I started using my CPAP July first of this year and use it all night, every night. I'm an active sleeper and a mouth breather so I use a FFM and still fight with leak issues each night. My average AHI is under .5 and I feel like a get a better night sleep. For the first week after I started using I felt great! Then, I hit a plateau when I did not seem to get any better, but still felt awesome.

In the last week or so I once again started to feel better each day. For the first time since starting CPAP I wake up each morning knowing that I was dreaming the night before. I have more energy, a longer attention span ( just look ...long post ) and clearer thinking...

Is it possible I finally cleared my sleep debt, or is this just a myth?

[Emilia]

Congratulations! I am a number of years older than you, and I started using my machine the last week in August. I am still waiting to feel awesome, but each week I seem to be aware of another thing that is better with my health. I have a bit more energy, but I am not up to any sustained exercise yet. I can do more chores around the house, and I notice that I have less aches and pains than before. I've slept wonderfully since starting cpap...beginner's luck, I'd say. My AHI is always below 2 and sometimes below 1. I feel I still have some debt to resolve, and I look forward to having more energy soon.

You sound like you've turned that corner.... Best of luck continuing down the road to good and better health! Sweet dreams!

[LinkC]

Definitely NOT a myth! It took me several months...and I can't really tell you when it happened because the changes are so subtle. But it will happen. (As you apparently now know.) Congrats!!

[Guest]

I love reading posts like this!

It's been almost 4 months for me, and while I do feel better, I still think there are better days ahead. My "fogginess" is almost gone, I'm in a much better frame of mind, and I seem to get more done each day. I can't say, though, that I have the energy level I'm hoping for!

Your post makes me believe that it's still going to happen! Maybe my "debt" is just not all paid yet???

[jlk]

I suggest applying a little more "principal" each day to help pay it off earlier, just like a bank loan, take a nap with your machine on when you can, but don't do it too long or it will make it hard to sleep at night. john

[jazzer4]

For some it seems to get much better faster, others need more time.
I've been on a year and "finally" feel at my proper energy level. I did start to improve after about 5 mon. Then it was all up hill after that.
I still feel a little bit better everyday even after a year. I can say I have more energy now than I did even a month ago.
I also think getting everything "under control", and this can take awhile, helps your mental attitude.
The fog lift was the first thing to get better, the energy level took longer.

[MoonBear]

Hi,

I am so glad you started this thread. I have been thinking so about this.

About four months ago, I sat down with my very elderly mother who is in FAR better shape than me. I have been so I'll for so long. I had the feeling that I was dying, and told her how much I loved her and asked her to know that. I was not being morbid or melodramatic. I felt I was on the way out, and was so very tired that I felt OK about that.

Enter apnea diagnosis and cpap. 101 episodes an hour with oxygen between 66 and 88 percent. Five days in to CPAP and I wake in the morning with a neutrality, calm and cheerfullness I have long since kissed goodbye.

I am still getting over the flu, but today I was able to do more straightening (about an hour) and go out for an easy errand. And do phone calls. Got home and took a two-hour blissful nap.

Little things, too. I yawn now. I realized it'd been a long time since I yawned. Far more importantly, I can dream. I am
dreaming of being in a 5K marathon next December. I have hopes of writing a book finally that I have been too exhausted to start.

I know that it may take a long time, and being 59 with so much defect, I may not come back to a true core vitality. But I know this. Today I had one of the five best days I've had in many years. This past summer through sheer grit I got to the gym for four weeks straight. While at my worst, I lost 70 pounds. I regained it when I could not keep up the discipline because my asthma got worse and I was I'll with so many things hitting me. Felt like a windshield with bugs splattering on me. No recovery from something before something else hit.

CPAP may not be an entire magic bullet for everything, but if I never got better than today, I would still have to feel like a miracle has occurred. It's as if future days hold beautifully wrapped gifts that I will come to when it is right. While the dreams roll in, I know my first job is to get well and learn and lose weight. I will start with five minutes a day of walking, and am gearing up my kitchen a life to use cooking skills I haven't used for years to cate sumptuous meals within a strict calorie count. My new regime starts with the turn of the year.

That is POSSIBLE now. I think possible may be a new favorite word. Like everyone else, I want it all now, but I also know that for the first time in ten years, my body is actually being the miracle it is. It is beginning to heal. like all my friend's bodies. And the mystery of "why can't I get better?" has been solved.

To be functional, reliable and have a routine. Unbelievable. Somebody wake me. No, don't. I really need the sleep.

Bear Hugs,
MoonBear

[Geminidream]

Congrats, Mbarb!
You have taken the next step in getting your life back. I started CPAP therapy almost a year ago (December 18th) and what a difference a year makes! I hit a plateau at first as well and I had some issues with masks (mainly leaks and general claustrophobic feelings) but about the time I got to 9 months of therapy I felt I had my normal amount of energy back. I am 38 years old and am pretty sure I have had OSA for most of my adult life, so I had an enormous amount of sleep debt to catch up on as well. Keep yourself healthy in other areas and you should continue to improve.

[BernieRay]

I haven't thought about sleep debt in a long time. When I was diagnosed in 1997, the doctor did about a 2 hour complete history on me. I was 36 at the time. After my study, when I went back to see him, his estimate was that I had missed out on about 17 years of sleep. That one stat made a serious impression on me. It's likely that I'll never erase that unless I turn into Rumpelstiltskin! And even then, who knows what damage was done that can't be reversed. I can't change any of that, so I don't worry about it.

For me, it was a quick improvment starting out. Though I wasn't a one night wonder, it didn't take more than a week or so for me to start feeling the improvement. To be honest, it's hard to know how much to attribute to better sleep. I was also diagnosed with diabetes on the same day, so I had a challenge in front of me. I quit smoking the day I started CPAP, completely changed my diet, and started walking 20-30 miles a week. Then again, without an OSA diagnosis, I might not have quit smoking and I certainly wouldn't have had the desire nor energy to make those other changes. Over my first 3 months, I lost 50 lbs, quit smoking, slept without waking most every night, got the diabetes under control, and was generally healthier than I'd been since high school. I had no idea that it would turn out that way when I started. I was just terrified of dying in my sleep. After weeks of waking up, gasping for breath as if I had been drowning, I would have been happy if CPAP had simply stopped those events from happening. I got way more than that though.

13 years later and I would like be able to to say that things have kept improving. While that isn't my reality, what is abundantly clear is that, without effective xPAP, I would be in far worse shape...or dead. My view is that we're being unfair to ourselves if we compare where we are today to a time in the past when we had younger, healthier bodies. That may be a practical goal for some, but it wasn't for me.

As long as I sleep reasonably well and look forward, rather than look back with regret (and possibly giving up), today will at least be okay, giving tomorrow a chance to be better. Or, as a friend of mine used to say, "Sometimes, before things can get better, they first have to get less worse."

It helps to be content in the meantime.

[JayC]

Ray......fabulous attitude and post!!

I can relate in so many ways to many things you have said.


After 2 years on CPAP, I am getting more inprovements as I get a track record.....of greater length of sleep. CPAP adjustment was easy for me, and helped set the stage for focusing on the other sleep issues.......some from several decades of sleep-disordered breathing.


Sleep debt....I believe it exists, and not solved in a straight line way.

Some energy issues could be that we have learned to conserve and not expect energy to be there for us. I don't trust energy/focus to come NOR to last........and this old habit of necessity is NOW interfering with building the life I want.

We perhaps need to build a track record of quality and quantity of sleep, AND reframe our expectations of what we can commit to accomplish.

SO GLAD FOR YOU!!!

J

[DocWeezy]

What a great topic...the idea of sleep debt was new to me when I started reading this forum. But boy, it IS a reality that has hit me hard. After getting my PAP, I really thought that in a few nights I'd be feeling marvelous. HAH! I was SO unprepared for the hassles with the mask, claustrophobia, ripping the mask off at night, humidity problems, and hey--guess what?--my usual sleep problems didn't disappear either.

Sigh.

BUT the comments from the long-time users here give me hope. I'm in the severe category (56 AHI/hour) from my first sleep study, and looking back I figure that I've had some form of OSA for over 20 years now. I've had insomnia issues all my life, but those are really quite different from the OSA issues.

So I guess it makes sense that it will take more than a 5 weeks to make up for over 20 years of severe sleep deprivation. I've had a few days that seem magical; unfortunately those are often followed by crappy days again, but I continue to hope for more magical days. I do feel some very small improvements in energy and my desire to do things, so I see that as a positive trend.

I guess for many of us, and especially me, the myth of putting on a xPAP and immediately feeling better is just that--a myth. Well, it happens for some but not for all. I'm equating it to recovering from a total knee replacement--the myth is that one will be out golfing in a couple of weeks; the reality is the recovery period is about a year, with improvements continuing for up to two years. It's a long time, but the long-term benefits are worth it and I keep telling myself that it is the same for my PAP therapy.

Thanks to all on this board--I don't know if I could have continued without learning from everyone, and without coming to understand the variables (and solutions!) in this process.

Weezy

[jlk]

After 5 days or 5 years, most everyone still will have crappy days/nights. Even non-pappers have bad nights. It's just nice to be able to have effective therapy to have far, far more good nights, and yes, what a great forum this is for us being here to help each other. john

[Big S]

There are so many things to consider when talking about sleep debt in relation to having it because of sleep apnea, and repaying it while dealing with our own special brand of therapy. The ball game has changed. Sleep debt is real. Most of us know it intimately and adjust to it with each day on the machine. Luckily I am retired, so I can do what I want, and there are many mornings when I have been in bed far more than compliance demands, but just don't want to get moving. Some of these mornings when my eyes are recovering from leaky mask issues, and I feel tired, I will go back to the bedroom and "strap it on" one more time just to rest. In these moments of surrender and reflection, I sometimes fall back to sleep for a couple of hours and actually awaken ready to go. That last segment of sleep is devoid of mask issues, howling leaks and crackling parchment mouth. I often just lay there upon arousal and just breathe the slow rhythmic pattern I am learning, and I am glad I'll see another day. I usually am able to follow this with an energetic day, full of many activities that I used to spread out over weeks to accomplish. I have my bad days but my mind is becoming full of these restful successes that are starting to become a repeatable reality. On a side note, the power, rythym, timing and most of all, patience, are coming out in my golf game. I may have to consider moving to a warmer clime.

[Twentysix]

Hi, great stories here. Thanks all for sharing them in such a positive mood! I did start sleeping better fairly quickly, but am so far still waiting for the burst of energy that I had expected. Must admit I am the impatient type. Although I have read somewhere that 'sleep debt' is a myth, I get the impression that for some of us it ain't. So I'll keep going and hoping that after another few months I will start feeling more energetic and finally jump out of bed instead of rolling groaning!

[kteague]

Funny how after 5 years on CPAP I'm considering sleep debt again, but I am. CPAP made a tremendous difference in day-to-day living, but my limb movements have continued to keep my sleep fractured. Just this past couple weeks that I'm sleeping better by using a TENS Unit, I've wondered when I might see the difference in my need for long sleep and multiple naps each day. Even after 6-8 hours in bed with the CPAP, I generally move to the recliner and sleep another couple hours at least, and have a shorter nap in the early evening. A couple nights I had 9 & 10 hours of sleep in bed. Talk about catching up! But I am finding the time in between more productive, and some days I don't even take the Provigil as I want to see my actual status. But at least I'm not napping intermittently around the clock even when on Provigil. I fully expect to see even better nights and days, but since my last little hissy fit (In my TENS thread), I'm trying to not set myself up for disappointment by expecting that which is out of my control to be on my timetable.

I am encouraged by the progress I've made, and very grateful for those here who made me believe I had reason for hope. At 59 years old with such a long track record with this, I don't expect to feel (or look) like a spring chicken again but I do expect to yet regain a bit more pep in my step. I am inspired by the stories here of those who have regained their health and their lives. Does my heart good.