Why it IS illegal - sort of - to change your pressure.

[navyvet]

It clearly says food along with devices, so the same would apply. It's ridiculous though once the end user owns the product.

It can be argued that rented machines are still in interstate commerce, but I don't think anyone here is talking about rented equipment. End user ownership is the end of the line. Equipment, food, drugs, tobacco, cosmetics. You CAN adulterate food, drugs, tobacco, cosmetics if you are the end user......equipment is handled in the same law. It applies to those products being resold, not consumers.

[chunkyfrog]

I have to study and analyze both surveyor's documents and lawyer-written documents--comparing the two is like night and day.
Surveyors seek to make their work CLEAR--not so with lawyers. Endless potential for alternate interpretation provides job security.
Maybe Resmed is 'adulterating' their machines themselves by putting the obviously inferior non-washable humidifier tank in their machines in the U.S.
Interesting discussion--especially about the insurance excuse part--Thanks for giving them ideas!
On a related topic; I wonder if anyone has figured how to screw with the hours on a Medicare machine.

[kempo]

Don't tell anyone but I pulled the tag that says "IT IS ILLEGAL TO REMOVE" off of my bed mattress.

[xyz]

mars:
> Only the cpap machine providers lie to me about this.

This is the most cogent comment in this entire thread.


amigo:
> I have to wonder what the real purpose of this "discussion" was.

See above.
To increase billing hours for a DME's RTs.
Though it's possible that it's an "underemployed" lawyer with too much (unbillable) time on his hands.


xj:
> My law degree, BTW, comes from a top ten law school

That's easy to say when unsupported. Prove it.

If it's true (I'm sceptical), it only proves, once again, that education and intelligence are only weakly correlated.

You may (or may not) have passed a law class, but you would have failed Math Logic 101.

To misconstrue changing the pressure on one's own machine (for onesself) as "adulteration" is wildly inflamatory. The law was meant e.g. for the murderer in the Chicago area who _adulterated_ Tylenol capsules.

> the majority in this group is only interested in hearing what they want to hear

I understand your point. I disagree that it's a majority. Minority, sure. That's called Statistics, which you probably didn't take either.

>> Your catalytic converter analogy is defective.
>
> That example was really directed to rebut the concept that
> once you own something you can do with it as you please.
> What I was referring to in that example was the federal
> rule that prohibits removal of the catalytic converter
> under any circumstance other than to repair or replace it.

Which makes your point defective. As you say, thare is a federal (and probably state as well) law which _explicitly_ prohibits that specific act (by name, catalytic converter). There is no law (to my knowledge) which _specifically and explicitly_ says exactly "you cannot change the pressure on your own machine for your own use."

If there is, point it out. But then it would make your Original Post moot.

If you are interested in _extrapolating logic_, then consider the case of auto adjusting xpap machines.

Mine changes the pressure constantly. Up, down, all the time. Auto machines have, more or less, become the standard of the industry. (Along with data capable.) QED, extrapolated logic tells you that changing pressure is the norm, not illegal.

[navyvet]

Don't tell anyone but I pulled the tag that says "IT IS ILLEGAL TO REMOVE" off of my bed mattress.

According to the op it would be illegal since products even with the consumers are still in interstate commerce, lmao.

[xj220c]

It clearly says food along with devices, so the same would apply. It's ridiculous though once the end user owns the product.

It can be argued that rented machines are still in interstate commerce, but I don't think anyone here is talking about rented equipment. End user ownership is the end of the line. Equipment, food, drugs, tobacco, cosmetics. You CAN adulterate food, drugs, tobacco, cosmetics if you are the end user......equipment is handled in the same law. It applies to those products being resold, not consumers.

From my original post:

"If, like me, you bought your machine outright, own it free and clear, and never sell it on Craiglist then your machine probably isn't in interstate commerce anymore. However, if you're renting a machine or if your insurance carrier requires you to exchange the machine for a new one or even if you swap it out with the manufacturer on a warranty exchange then your machine definitely, absolutely, positively is still "in interstate commerce". It's still moving through the commercial world. It still could be bought or sold by somebody else."

Why is it so difficult to actually read through a post and try to understand it before coming on a slamming people? If you had taken 20 extra seconds to look at what I wrote you'd have figured out that we agree on this point.

Honestly folks do you come here for information or just for the chance to argue with somebody?

XJ.

[navyvet]

Hilarious from the "top 10 law school grad" troll. You clearly started this in order to get arguments going.

[xj220c]

Alright, this is just ridiculous now.

I tried twice. No more.

Thanks to all you actually wanted to have a discussion that could possibly improve people's understanding of the situation. That at least was enjoyable. I wish you luck and health in your treatment.

Cheers.

XJ out.

[scrapper]

It's fine to respectfully disagree with opinions...........but pretty soon DoriC is going to have to get her wooden soup spoon out and beat some decency into a few posters.........

[navyvet]

If a thread starts with this:

OK, I know I'm going to regret posting this, but what the hooey. Let's go for the ride.

or "I know I may get flamed for posting this" it means they are posting fully knowing what will happen. It was meant to stir things up, playing coy don't get it.

It IS called trolling, it refers to posts and opinions posted.

An Internet troll is someone who posts offensive, controversial, or divisive material on an Internet community.

He clearly knew this was controversial, and even devisive.

[GumbyCT]

If a thread starts with this:

OK, I know I'm going to regret posting this, but what the hooey. Let's go for the ride.

or "I know I may get flamed for posting this" it means they are posting fully knowing what will happen. It was meant to stir things up, playing coy don't get it.

It IS called trolling, it refers to posts and opinions posted.

An Internet troll is someone who posts offensive, controversial, or divisive material on an Internet community.

He clearly knew this was controversial, and even devisive.

My understanding was that he was trying to clear up misunderstandings he saw in another post, and I thought he did. What you quoted above is where he was trying to short circuit these negative flames.

Disagree (if you want) but be civil.

XJ is far from being a troll.

[robysue]

[ I just hope that we can maintain the distinction between a discussion on what the law is and what the law ought to be. Those are two very different subjects even when you invoke Jefferson and natural law.

Well said xj. This is an important distinction to keep in mind.

[jonquiljo]

Don't tell anyone but I pulled the tag that says "IT IS ILLEGAL TO REMOVE" off of my bed mattress.

Oh no!!! You did what????! Boy, better crawl under the mattress now because they are coming to get you! Seriously ... that tag (I believe) only applies to people selling the mattress to you. Once you have it you can do whatever you want. If I am wrong and you end up in jail for "adulterating a mattress" I promise I will pay to bail you out!

My law degree, BTW, comes from a top ten law school, Before I entered the business world I had the privilege of representing indigent clients before local and state courts, several federal districts, three US Circuit Courts of Appeal, and two cases on both brief and oral argument before the US Supreme Court. You know that it's a sad state of affairs when they let a guy who got his degree from a box of candy do stuff like that. I'm know that sounds like bragging - and it is. I'm proud of my service to the poor before the courts of this country. If there's one thing that this experience has taught me it's that I need to spend less time on the internet and more time in the free legal clinic I volunteer at. At least there people appreciate it when someone offers them help.

Well, I have many years experience of being a client who was sued (usually by someone trying to squeeze a quick buck), or having lawyers trying to bill me to manage things that needed no legal intervention at all. Yes, I think having experience being on the other end of the stick matters too. I respect what you have done with your life. However, please don't try to extend that to minutiae of the law that are really not of concern to anyone involved. It is not a big deal in reality to change CPAP settings if you know what works better for you. And, in fact, I find this concept of forced compliance (where you are required to produce your data card) to make you insurance company happy to be an invasion of our civil rights. Medicare is the only big offender here - and it may be legal for them to ask. I bet if it was challenged, though, you could find someone to rule against Medicare (it's more political than legal). The point of this is that legality is not relevant.

We seem to have entered into an age where laws are overabundant. "This is right and that is wrong and illegal." It's only when you start listening to that garbage, that you fall victim to it. Oh yes, and my brother is a lawyer who chases ambulances for a living. Gee, that is an impressive way to spend your life! Trust me, he is a very unimpressive human being too. He doesn't have a "top ten" law degree, but that would only make his existence even more disgusting. Lots of his "associates" do. It's not what you are or where you went to school or what you have that really matters. It's about being good to the people around you and taking care of your own life with dignity. If your machine is not set up optimally - then by all means go and learn and set it up to help you the way it needs to!

It's like the person who said a couple of nights back that it was illegal to sleep naked in Minnesota. I'm sure it is, but reality is that people can and will continue to sleep naked there - even in the winter - though I can't imagine who would want to sleep that way when it is 200 degrees below zero out! (men might - we will do anything for sex I've been told). But I digress. California is about to vote to make marijuana legal or not on Tuesday's ballot. It's gonna lose - but Gov. Arnold already got around that by getting the state legislature to decriminalize the stuff. If California votes to legalize it - the Feds have already vowed to sue. Now I want a front row seat to that. I don't care about MJ (I hate smoke smell), but I do care about the fact that we all have too many people trying to control us all day long. And no, I don't like having to carry tons of liability insurance because there is someone always looking to sue me if I even fart in the wrong place. I actually can get sued if I fart in the right place too - it's all about how much someone want to do to squeeze me dry.

The bottom line is we have too many lawyers. Lots of them get their degrees from boxes of candy. None of us are better than anyone else.

[M.D.Hosehead]

Here's an angle that hasn't been mentioned.

Suppose I change my pressure settings.

I see my doc.

The doc prints out the data from my SD card, informing him/her of the settings on my machine.

If he/she then tells me to keep doing what I'm doing and come back in 6 months, is that not, in fact, a prescription for the new settings?

[Laurie1041]

I really enjoyed the original post. I did not find it inflammatory nor offensive in the least. IMHO, it was only an exercise in starting up a discussion. As I review each post, I find it interesting that some people "respond" and some people "react". Coming from a purely psychosocial model, it is my understanding that our reactions and responses are largely shaped by whether or not we feel there is a threat to self - in this case, I can only imagine that it relates to perceptions revolving personal choice and freedom, along with the need to have power over our health.

In reviewing the original post, I cannot find one instance where the poster said, "Don't change the settings of your own machine or else. . ." I read about a bunch of laws, regulations, and rules and a personal interpretation based upon the poster's experience of reading case law, statutes, etc. Not once did my hackles rise up and my panties get in a bunch while reading the original post.

To me, it was merely academic and an interesting way in which to get people talking and sharing. Any communication, whether written or spoken will most certainly breakdown when people become disrespectful, argumentative, punitive, or shaming. I see no need for any of us to stoop to this level. The question that begs asking is "To what purpose am I on this forum?" I sincerely hope that it is to find answers for yourselves and to give the newbies (like myself) the hope and inspiration that we too can learn all that we can in order to cope with this potentially lethal disorder. Can we close the books on this chapter? Hugs, Laurie