Help me to design a new machinery for u!

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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2ndGenCPAPgal
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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by 2ndGenCPAPgal » Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:06 am

roster wrote:
2ndGenCPAPgal wrote: Maybe take it a step further and add multiple usb ports to the machine to allow more "add ons" like a larger data storage device, the alarm clock, Oximetry, or some other custom innovation.

You can get it quickly at a low price when the market is deregulated.
I'm not going to hold my breath....I'm sure one of the big guys is patenting the idea as we type (if they hadn't already since it seems like an obvious idea).

(Wow, who put the cynical in my coffee this morning? )

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roster
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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by roster » Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:07 am

I challenge you big nanny-government lovers to look at this:
Can you think of every purchase you made in the last ten years? Think about cameras, IPODs, IPADs, cell phones, smart phones, video games, TVs, hell even chain saws, shoes, apparel, sound systems, apparel, on and on - all unregulated or lightly regulated markets - and look what has happened to these products. Your argument would be that in the last ten years these products have become lower quality, higher priced, counterfeit, and unsafe. Exactly the opposite has happened - the quality of the products has soared in the last ten years and the prices have fallen - that happened to all these products - they have become more available to the lower income segment of our society.
and explain why in all those markets the availability of high tech products loved by consumers has soared and prices have fallen and yet in the CPAP market new technology comes very slowly, the prices go up and consumers are unhappy with the state of technology.

Answer that and convince me that regulation of the CPAP market is a good thing. Address the two types of markets and the amazing success in one and the lack of success in the other. What is your argument about those two facts.

I am afraid the highly regulated CPAP market is doomed to trudge along in a low innovation, high cost manner.

Yes, please vote on November 9.
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

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2ndGenCPAPgal
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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by 2ndGenCPAPgal » Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:39 am

You answered it yourself:
roster wrote:high tech products loved by consumers
aka: scale and desirability

If everyone was dying to be a hosehead (instead of dying while avoiding being a hosehead), we would have cooler machines than any of us can imagine...or no machines at all because someone would have found a CURE.
roster wrote:Yes, please vote on November 9.
And seriously? Are these the steps that you need to take to advance your agenda? Misleading people about election day? I'm sure our founding fathers would be proud.

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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by chunkyfrog » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:26 am

Regarding the interesting point brought up by xjc220c;
I have seen some the 'medical devices' shown in museums-and at the dental college.
I would like to think that we are more educated, because of our increased connectivity.
However, quackery still flourishes--especially in this country.
But regulation may not be the answer; as anyone, it seems, can be bought off.
My vote is for information--and truth.

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roster
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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by roster » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:43 am

chunkyfrog wrote: But regulation may not be the answer; as anyone, it seems, can be bought off.
My vote is for information--and truth.

Image

(Pssst. chunky, Election day is November 2.)
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

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M.D.Hosehead
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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by M.D.Hosehead » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:52 am

Libertarian philosophy is appealing, but the theory doesn't allow for:

greed
dishonesty
corruption.

And these conditions are guaranteed to be present always.

Suppose anyone in the world could make a box and call it a CPAP, make any claim for it he chooses, and then collude in secret with doctors and/or insurance companies to recommend only his machine. You can predict the result.

I agree greed, dishonesty, and corruption are baked into laws and regulations. But deregulation won't make those go away. Want an example? Consider the deregulation of the banking industry.

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roster
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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by roster » Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:20 am

M.D.Hosehead wrote: Suppose anyone in the world could make a box and call it a CPAP, make any claim for it he chooses, and then collude in secret with doctors and/or insurance companies to recommend only his machine. You can predict the result.

You don't understand the philosophy and how the world works. Yes, I can predict the results of the very hypothetical example. If it occurs in a centrally-planned economy, it would be tragic.

If it occurs in a free country with rules of law protecting individual freedom, it would be over very quickly. Word would spread quickly, the manufacturer would fail and the doctors and insurance company executives would be disgraced and the target of lawsuits from the few who were harmed during the short-lived scam.

The market for TVs is fairly free. Dream that the TV manufacturers would say, "Hey, the TV market is not regulated, let's make a cheap box and call it a TV and collude with the major retailers to sell it at a huge profit." You know how well that would work for them and the CPAP market would be the same.

M.D., I would say you came up with a silly example for the U.S., but it is really not so farfetched. Think about the home mortgage "crisis" where the bankers (cronies with the government) bundled subprime loans and sold them to the government cronies (FreddieMac and FannieMae). That is not so farfetched from your CPAP example. It requires the cronies in government to help it work, although eventually the house of cards folds.

Don't make the mistake that you think we are for no laws. Free markets in the U.S. require the Constitution to be upheld and the laws against fraud, deception and coercion to be enforced. All exhanges are voluntary. Products sold are "suitable for the purpose intended". These are all parts of our basic U.S. law - no further regulation or licensing of markets is needed to have these protections under the law.

I go back to the example about my favorite sporting goods store, Dick's, which operates in a relatively free market. Thinking about your example of a box labeled CPAP, what if Dick's sold me a soccer ball labeled "ball construction with a high-performance elastomeric bladder for improved on-field action. Approved for collegiate and NFHS competition, this NFHS-endorsed soccer ball features a 32-panel, hand-sewn construction with a premium composite leather cover. Layered with elastic spandex and soft foam for power and control, this match ball has a Wilson-engineered bladder for improved performance and shape consistency. A single-layer clear coat protects the graphics and surface for improved finish and durability. " and I took it home and found it was a piece of junk unsuitable for even four-year olds to play with, much less for the intended purpose???

Would you call for a federal agency to approve all soccer balls and another agency to license all soccerball retailers and a coach to provide a prescription?

The management of Dick's would take care of the problem very quickly.

The market works to the advantage of "the little guy" as long as government doesn't interfere.
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

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roster
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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by roster » Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:27 am

M.D.Hosehead wrote:Libertarian philosophy is appealing, but the theory doesn't allow for:

greed
dishonesty
corruption.

As far as libertarianism goes, everyone that I know who claims to be a libertarian believes in the rule of law and supports laws against deception, fraud and coercion. You say the "theory" does not allow for dishonesty and corruption, but as far as they involve deception, fraud or coercion, all libertarians will say they are illegal and should be punished.

Greed I leave out. Greed is impossible to define in a court of law. Greed is a moral hazard and I try to avoid it, but the government should not try to legislate against it.
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

xj220c
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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by xj220c » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:14 am

roster wrote:Can you think of every purchase you made in the last ten years? Think about cameras, IPODs, IPADs, cell phones, smart phones, video games, TVs, hell even chain saws, shoes, apparel, sound systems, apparel, on and on - all unregulated or lightly regulated markets - and look what has happened to these products. Your argument would be that in the last ten years these products have become lower quality, higher priced, counterfeit, and unsafe. Exactly the opposite has happened - the quality of the products has soared in the last ten years and the prices have fallen - that happened to all these products - they have become more available to the lower income segment of our society.
Roster, take a look at the back of your iPod. See that little symbol that says "CE"? That's the regulatory mark showing you that, amongst other things, it's been tested not to put out radio interference that can mess up your TV, cell phone, and pacemaker.

Look on the back of your television. See the "UL" mark? That means that it's been designed so that it won't burn down your house and kill your kids.

Stop at the gas station. See all the unleaded gas? That's to keep lead from filling the air and turning our kids into imbeciles.

We're delusional? Almost everything you buy is regulated for safety in one way or another. That's true from the cotton clothing you wear that's no longer treated with cancer-causing dyes to the car you drive to work in that's built with mandatory seat belts, air bags, and auto safety glass.

The quality of goods has soared. The price of goods has fallen. And it's all happened with safety regulations that protect consumers, give them confidence to buy, and provide them with greater value through the higher quality designs that the regulations require.

Believe it or not, you live in a country where you take advantage of the regulatory system each and every day in almost every single thing you do. You, and the rest of America, will live ten to twenty years longer and have a healthier, more comfortable life because of it. You then complain about how hard you've got it and how the government needs to take action to get out of your life. Really?

I think the following sums it up nicely:

Image

Cheers,
XJ.

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roster
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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by roster » Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:53 am

xj220c wrote: Roster, take a look at the back of your iPod. See that little symbol that says "CE"? That's the regulatory mark showing you that, amongst other things, it's been tested not to put out radio interference that can mess up your TV, cell phone, and pacemaker.

Look on the back of your television. See the "UL" mark? That means that it's been designed so that it won't burn down your house and kill your kids.

Stop at the gas station. See all the unleaded gas? That's to keep lead from filling the air and turning our kids into imbeciles.

We're delusional? Almost everything you buy is regulated for safety in one way or another. That's true from the cotton clothing you wear that's no longer treated with cancer-causing dyes to the car you drive to work in that's built with mandatory seat belts, air bags, and auto safety glass.

The quality of goods has soared. The price of goods has fallen. And it's all happened with safety regulations that protect consumers, give them confidence to buy, and provide them with greater value through the higher quality designs that the regulations require.

Believe it or not, you live in a country where you take advantage of the regulatory system each and every day in almost every single thing you do. You, and the rest of America, will live ten to twenty years longer and have a healthier, more comfortable life because of it. You then complain about how hard you've got it and how the government needs to take action to get out of your life. Really?

Delusional? I can't say with certainty, but you do have an imaginative mind when it comes to replying to my posts. I have never objected to laws prohibiting the use of lead in gasoline. I have never criticized UL marks. UL is an independent organization with no power to regulate or coerce and some manufacturers voluntarily seek the rights to their mark.

So because lead in gasoline is undesirable, we should have FDA regulation of CPAPs, licensing of CPAP retailers, and prescription requirements? That logic doesn't work.

Just tell me what these regulations, licensing and prescriptions are protecting me from??? I don't believe it is lead in gasoline. What are they protecting me from and what are they protecting new patients from???

You made this statement earlier:
I also know that most medical device makers do everything they can to just barely meet the minimum acceptable safety standards of their products - and I've been in more than one US factory where it's clear that even the minimums aren't being met despite what management was reporting to the FDA.
So then it is clear from this example, the regulations are not protecting me. My nanny-government cannot protect me.

That is why I want an open market - a market where the suppliers are at my mercy to choose - a market where we will all walk quickly away from suppliers we are not happy with and watch them fail. A market where the suppliers protect me because they want my business and they want to stay in business.

I don't want the kind of market you prefer - a market where the "bad" suppliers are protected by the regulators and their bureaucrats and the regulations - a market where the "bad" suppliers remain entrenched because my choices are limited by government. A market where even you admit minimum standards are not being met. I want a market where standards are exceeded because it is a free market with plenty of competition and the constant threat of new market entrants if the customers aren't happy.

All of that happens when government stay out of markets. When governments get in quality, safety, innovation and price suffer.

Just tell me what these regulations, licensing and prescriptions are protecting me from??? What are they protecting me from and what are they protecting new patients from???

If you can't answer those two questions, I can and will.
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by chunkyfrog » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:35 pm

I like to think that we're modern enough to be informed--at least SOME of us;
and old fashioned enough to organize a necktie party should the situation warrant it.

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xj220c
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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by xj220c » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:45 pm

Rooster, I'm not going to even try to reply to you about this anymore. It's clearly a waste of time.

I'm just going to sit here and:

A. drink my decaffeinated coffee (containing less than 10PPM of methylene chloride per FDA mandate)
B. out of my favorite mug (which has lead free glaze per federal regulation)
C. after adding in a little pasteurized milk (that can only be labeled as such after treatment under government-specified conditions)
D. and stirring it with a nice shiny spoon (which could not have been imported into this country if it leached cadmium from the chrome plating) and,
E. wonder how people like you end up walking around with a tin-foil hat on (which these days would be made from food grade aluminum).

I just thank God that you don't control the laws regulating the safe and effective products I use in my daily life. I enjoy being healthy.

Cheers,
XJ.

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roster
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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by roster » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:49 pm

xj220c wrote:Rooster, I'm not going to even try to reply to you about this anymore. It's clearly a waste of time.

I think that is a good idea since you have no good answers to the basic questions in the discussion:
Just tell me what these regulations, licensing and prescriptions are protecting me from??? What are they protecting me from and what are they protecting new patients from???
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related

xj220c
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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by xj220c » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:52 pm

roster wrote:I think that is a good idea since you have no good answers to the basic questions in the discussion:
Just tell me what these regulations, licensing and prescriptions are protecting me from??? What are they protecting me from and what are they protecting new patients from???
I did answer it. Those regs are protecting us from people like you.

XJ.

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roster
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Re: Help me to design a new machinery for u!

Post by roster » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:07 pm

xj220c wrote:A. drink my decaffeinated coffee (containing less than 10PPM of methylene chloride per FDA mandate)
B. out of my favorite mug (which has lead free glaze per federal regulation)
C. after adding in a little pasteurized milk (that can only be labeled as such after treatment under government-specified conditions)
D. and stirring it with a nice shiny spoon (which could not have been imported into this country if it leached cadmium from the chrome plating) and,

None of the cutesy things you quoted require submissions to government authorities (FDA approval), licensing of retailers, or prescriptions. So I assume you have abandoned your argument for their necessity.

It is well known in this forum that these types of requirements are hindering our ability to treat our sleep apnea. People are reporting examples of it here nearly every day.
Rooster
I have a vision that we will figure out an easy way to ensure that children develop wide, deep, healthy and attractive jaws and then obstructive sleep apnea becomes an obscure bit of history.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ycw4uaX ... re=related