Is Rem sleep important?

[unadog]

Well, without REM sleep you would die .... It is also when you create growth hormone, heal your tissues, and consolidate your memory.

What does your data look like? What is your AHI? How long are you sleeping at a time, how much total?

You can't tell from your CPAP data whether you are getting REM sleep. You can't even really tell whether you fell asleep.

You might want to move to another bedroom for a while. You don't need the extra arousals from your sleeping partner.

Buy the book that is being discusserd now:

Sound Sleep Sound Mind 7 Keys to Sleeping through the Night
(The Drug-Free, mind-body approach to getting the sleep you need)
By Barry Krakow, M.D.

Even if you had your OSA under control, you might still have insomnia, arousals, etc. There is a lot to this! It can also be a lot of hard work. But, if you want your life back ....

After 20+ years of insomnia, chronic pain, pain meds, and taking sleeping pills for the previous 3 years, I started to sleep 9-10 hours a night, almost straight through, when I finally got on the right machine (an ASV) for me. Keep going!

Also, FWIW, I have many more events in NREM than REM. It took me 260+ minutes to get to REM at my titration. Now I dream a lot, and remember the dreams.

Good luck!
Michael

[chunkyfrog]

I'm the other way around. Before CPAP, I woke up regularly remembering vigorous, strenuous, and sometimes bizarre dreams.
I would be so full of adrenaline, I could not get back to sleep. I sort of miss the excitement--not really!

[elena88]

Oh, now I remember after cpap, I started having vivid nightmares.. all nightmares..

I heard that was quite typical..


so if you wake up to one of those, dont be alarmed..

[Marietjie]

I think part of the reason I am having problems is dear hubby is like a wild man when he is asleep. He kicks and thrashes stops breathing and coughs

Stormynights....you need quiet nights!!! Ever considered seperate rooms?
Works wonderfully for us.
Read more (re REM and DREAMS)http://www.happynews.com/living/sleep/rem-sleep.htm

[M.D.Hosehead]

Stormy,

I don't think anyone has answered your original question about the importance of REM. I'll try to do that further down tihis post. But first:


Elena88 is right that many of us don't get REM on our test nights. In my case I slept so little, and it was so fragmented that I never had a chance to REM. Don't worry about it, though, because virtually everyone has REM sleep. You have to destroy a part of the brain--from a stroke for example--to stop REM. But there's no way for a person to know how much REM they have without all those wires attached.

Elena is also correct that about the only way to know if you are dreaming is to remember it (wellll-- actually guys do have another way, but that's a subject for another thread). But even if you remember dreaming, it's not a guarantee you were in REM, because we also dream in NREM sleep.

I think unadog is mistaken about one thing. The main secretion of growth hormone occurs during the first NREM, usually soon after you fall asleep.

About your question, REM must be important. If a person is deprived of REM, even partially, it's as if a "REM pressure" builds up, and as soon as the opportunity arises, the body will try to make up that REM deficit, even in the daytime.

Unadog, I doubt anyone has ever died of REM deprivation. For one thing, it's almost impossible to achieve, because the "pressure" gets so high that REM can't be stopped. But the NREM may be even more important. If a person is deprived of all sleep, the body will make up the NREM deficit (and the growth hormone secretion) first.

Stormy, it sounds like your problem is just poor sleep, not deep enough and too fragmented to be restful. Temporarily you may need to try something like sleeping in another room, at least part of the night. But it also may be the case that you're not getting effective treatment. Your pressure seems high and you may be getting a lot of leaks and therefore not good control of apneas. Read here and post your data, and someone will try to help.

Love your avatar.

[Stormynights]

I will be off work Sunday and Monday. I will try to post my data and get some advice on my settings. I am just trying so hard to figure this out on my own. I do hope you guys and girls can help me figure this out. I am a little nervous moving to another bed room because I would then have to go check on Hubby. I realize this is stupid but His breathing is so bad I think I have to watch out for him.

[SleepingUgly]

MD Hosehead, so what about REM-suppressing medications? I've often wondered, if REM is so critical, are REM-suppressing medications OK?

[kteague]

It looks like before long your situation will not require you to stay on high alert due to your hubby. Maybe once he settles in with his treatment you'll be able to also. Right now your brain is trained to not sleep too soundly. It may take a while for it to learn new habits. As far as your treatment goes, your data is so very important. Seems you're using an awfully high pressure - is that based on data you were seeing? Once leaks are under control and your treatment is shown to be effective per the data, you'll likely begin to get all the stages of sleep you need to be rested.

One question about the diagnostic study - what did it say about limb movements? While your apparent shallow and fragile sleep is likely largely due to your bed partner, some people have limb movements that disrupt their sleep.

Look forward to reading the info you post.

[M.D.Hosehead]

Hi, SU,

You're correct that many drugs, including alcohol, suppress (decrease the % of sleep spent in) REM. With chronic administration, the REM% tends to return to baseline levels. If the REM-suppressing drug is then discontinued there will be a "REM rebound", a temporary increase in REM%, which, in turn will gradually return to baseline levels. Other than the vivid dreams associated with the REM rebound, i don't think anyone has found a harmful effect from these changes in REM%.

The above is true for healthy adult volunteers (a euphemism for grad. and med. students ). Introduce alcoholism, substance abuse, aging, physical illness, chronic pain, sleep apnea, etc. and that basic physiology may not apply.

I wouldn't use the term "critical" in describing REM. Animals--and the occasional human--who, due to brain injury, have no REM at all seem surprisingly unimpaired. No one know why we seem to need REM--that's why there are so many theories. In fact, I don't think there's a clear understanding of why we need to sleep at all, though we obviously do.

The Wikipedia articles on REM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement_sleep

and sleep

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_%28non-human%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep

contain several other eye-openers (ba-dum).

[nobody]

You can die from lack of sleep, but thankfully it seems to be very rare!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_familial_insomnia

[elena88]

I will be off work Sunday and Monday. I will try to post my data and get some advice on my settings. I am just trying so hard to figure this out on my own. I do hope you guys and girls can help me figure this out. I am a little nervous moving to another bed room because I would then have to go check on Hubby. I realize this is stupid but His breathing is so bad I think I have to watch out for him.

I totally understand how you feel.. as for the last twenty odd some years, I have listened to my husband snore and gasp etc..
I managed to somehow spend a lot of the evening in a state of light sleep, so I could nudge him when he stopped breathing..

This can create a hell of a pattern for YOUR sleep.. not to mention being hyper alert from taking care of ailing parents.. YOU cant be a sound
sleeper, when someone might die on your watch.. at least you feel you cant.. so there is that little voice telling you DONT relax, dont do it,
dont let go all the way, or something bad will happen..

My husband sleeps like a dog. However, he has already had one heart attack, but refuses the two appts made for him by two doctors for sleep study.
He also refuses to wear my swift fx or opus 360 on my s nine anymore just for a little "fun" test.. He did wear it for ten minutes once
and ended up with fifteen events.. ( he also goes into rem within one minute) but thats another story..

Anway, I KNOW how it is when you start your own path to sleep.. I sort of felt guilty that I wasnt watching him sleep, instead I was off in dreamland with my apap. Im having a hard time with mine, but I know things are better than they were.. I probably was going to have a heart attack or stroke very
soon if I didnt get diagnosed.. so hang in there.. you will find you can relax to go to sleep, and he will be okay too.. you are right, give it a break, give
yourselves a break, he might just love it.. imagine you both waking up bright eyed and bushy tailed from a quiet nite of sleep.. imagine that

[Stormynights]

It looks like before long your situation will not require you to stay on high alert due to your hubby. Maybe once he settles in with his treatment you'll be able to also. Right now your brain is trained to not sleep too soundly. It may take a while for it to learn new habits. As far as your treatment goes, your data is so very important. Seems you're using an awfully high pressure - is that based on data you were seeing? Once leaks are under control and your treatment is shown to be effective per the data, you'll likely begin to get all the stages of sleep you need to be rested.

One question about the diagnostic study - what did it say about limb movements? While your apparent shallow and fragile sleep is likely largely due to your bed partner, some people have limb movements that disrupt their sleep.

Look forward to reading the info you post.

I didn't see the diagnostic. I barely got a prescription. All I know is what the tech told me. She said my apnea was mild until I started going to rem sleep then it went crazy till I woke up.

[SleepingUgly]

REM-dependent OSA is apparently common in women. I had an RDI of 4.6 (or something, the numbers escape me) in NREM, not counting near continuous flow limitations, and an RDI of 58 in REM, for an overall RDI of 15.7.

I'm not sure why suppressing REM with medications is OK, but interrupting it constantly feels cruddy... REM-suppressing medications are used in narcolepsy. I tried to google to find out if they are used for REM-dependent OSA, and if my memory serves me (which is always questionable), results indicated they tend to improve respiratory events in NREM, oddly enough.