Canadians Being Gouged

[cpap'er]

I cant believe how us Canadians are being gouged with the prices of CPAP equipment here in Canada. There are many of us who do not have medical insurance through our workplaces and have to pay out of pocket for this equipment. I recently tried to buy a ResMed Swift Fx Nasal Pillow Mask here in Nova Scotia Canada and was shocked at the price of it. The quotes i was getting were $249 and up for this mask that can be found in the USA for $129 or less. Then i found out that ResMed forbids any of their US retailers from selling their products to Canadians. I figure their Candian division is behind that decision beacause they are afraid the Canadian divison would go under if Canadians could get the products for what they should be getting them for but we as Canadians tend to be too passive and just let the Corporate Giants do whatever they please to us and our government doesnt have the guts to step in and regulate the prices so we arnt at the mercy of anyone who wants to over inflate their prices to "get rich quick".

The price of a Repironics PR System one in Canada is approx. $2300.00 as apposed to the US price of approx $700-800
Those are not isolated items...all things CPAP are inflated hundreds of dollars more than the US prices here in Canada.

Things need to change

[roster]

Your problem is not too few regulations. The problem is too many of the wrong regulations. Suppliers have to comply to Health Canada's Therapeutic Products Program and a "Ruled Based Set of Regulations and a Risk Based Classification System". The manufacturers must obtain a device license.

In order to be successful in Canada, equipment manufactures must select a national distributor with well-defined provincial and regional strategies and resources. In short this means it is difficult to be a successful exporter to Canada and it is difficult to be a successful retailer of medical equipment within Canada. To be a retailer you need strong connections with the regulatory and licensing boards.

This makes it difficult for new entrants to get into the business. This limits competition and allows manufacturers and retailers to maintain higher prices.

The U.S. is better off because of a more competitive environment. We still have heavy regulatory restrictions which keep the prices higher than they would be otherwise. Many of us would like to see CPAPs sold OTC (without prescription) by any retailer who wants to sell them. If these devices could be sold like that by Best Buy, WalMart, Amazon, etc., the prices would fall like a rock. A robust market for used equipment would also develop. Excellent used machines would be sold at low prices on EBay and Craig's List.

Very unfortunately we are headed in the opposite direction with new health care regulation and an aggressive FDA always writing more restrictive rules. In five years we will be in the same shape with CPAP prices as Canada.

Canada ranks seventh worldwide (U.S. is eighth) in the Heritage's Foundation Index of Economic Freedom for 2010. This is admirable but it is still a long way from the way citizens have a right to be treated.

In the meantime, buy your machines from U.S. internet suppliers.

Did you start this thread, viewtopic.php?f=1&t=53852&st=0&sk=t&sd=a , by any chance?

[BlackSpinner]

Your problem is not too few regulations.

Bullshit

[roster]

Works on your flower beds, but may leave your residence smelling badly.

[M.D.Hosehead]

It's the inverse of Yanks getting gouged by the prices of prescription drugs compared with what Canadians (or, for that matter, Mexicans) pay. FDA says it cannot guarantee the quality of Canadian prescription drugs (as though Canadians have been dropping dead from inferior prescription drugs), and at one time was considering asking U. S. Customs to seize medicine imported from Canada. So far, they haven't done that.

I thought NAFTA meant "free trade", like the name says. But no. I wonder why? Surely it couldn't be due to corruption in high places.

[Julie]

NOT defending anyone here, but part of the problem could also be the old one, e.g. a much smaller market for specialty items. But I still think it's lousy.

[cpap'er]

I guess theres many reasons this whole price gouge is happening...Julie mentioned too it is a fairly small market of us that is increasing daily but for the most part any market that is dependant on only certain places to get products will be at the mercy of what ever the sellers wish to charge. Kinda like clothing for big and tall people...there are only so many places you can buy jeans with a 54 waist and the retaiers selling then take advantage of the fact you dont have many choices if you wanna wear clothing and not go around nakid....anyway you cut it up we are still being screwed over the barrel...lol

I never thought of it like Rooster explained...Canada has always been a place of very little competition in any market..we see that here in Nova Scotia where since the telephone was invented we only had one telephone company and that meant no alternative if you didn't like their prices for telephone service...in the past few years we now have one other company now competing which makes it bit better but still not as good as it could be with multiple service providers. Competition is good...

That wasnt me that started that newbie thread Rooster...lol

[roster]

I never thought of it like Rooster explained...Canada has always been a place of very little competition in any market..we see that here in Nova Scotia where since the telephone was invented we only had one telephone company and that meant no alternative if you didn't like their prices for telephone service...in the past few years we now have one other company now competing which makes it bit better but still not as good as it could be with multiple service providers. Competition is good...

I assume your two telephone companies now have additional competition from cell phone providers and internet phone sevices and to some extent email service. All of these help to keep them honest to some extent. Of course if the one phone company is providing the internet cable service and maybe even the cell phone service, they have you where they want you.

As you say, competition is good. In the U.S. it is a big battle in many industries to get the government out. The government is providing heavy regulation that greatly favors a few entrenched companies in those industries. This is called "crony capitalism" and it keeps new companies from coming into the market.

There is a big misunderstanding in the U.S. Many citizens/consumers cry for more regulation to keep the big "greedy" companies in line. They need to look beyond the end of their noses. These big companies also want more regulation. They want it because they know they are entrenched and have the critical mass to deal with the regulation. They will use the regulation to their advantage and keep new competition out.

The way to keep companies under the control of the consumers is to deregulate the industry. This makes it easier for new entrants and new technologies to come onto the market and provide competition. When this type of free market exists, the only power the big corporations (or the small ones) achieve is to provide the consumer with a product and a price that he is willing to pay for. If the corporation does not provide this, it has no power. It will change or cease to exist.

I would like to see ResMed knocked down a notch for some of their deeds. One is the way they are treating their internet dealers and the other is they threatened ebay to stop allowing sales of used CPAPs. You could make a regulation to stop both of these practices. However, that is costly and inefficient and ResMed would soon find a way around it. It would be better to get rid of regulations, such as a prescription requirement. Without a prescription requirement, ebay and many others would sell used CPAPs and a robust market would develop. (We can be sure of this because so many people own CPAPs and don't use them. If they can make a few bucks, they would sell many of these machines which have been lightly used.)

That situation with the student in the other thread is troubling. It sounded like the kid was going to pay $2500 for a machine and borrow the money. Too bad.

[BlackSpinner]

Actually telephone companies are a good illustration why the US model doesn't work - All those big companies also support many many out lying areas that wouldn't have telephones if they weren't supported by the heavily populated areas. Lately in fact things like banking has disappeared from rural areas. There was no cell phone coverage for large parts of Nova scotia when I left there a few years ago because it wasn't cost effective. There is no train service to many areas any more because it isn't "competitive". Bus service to many rural areas are being cut because it isn't "competitive" The Fundy Shore where I lived is only now getting high speed internet.

[Julie]

And even tho' I'm now in a city (vs tiny previous town) I have no choice of internet 'bundle' but the truly horrible one I'm stuck with, though other areas of town do have choices (or at least other providers). Infuriating!

[diboja]

The price of a Repironics PR System one in Canada is approx. $2300.00 as apposed to the US price of approx $700-800
Those are not isolated items...all things CPAP are inflated hundreds of dollars more than the US prices here in Canada.

Things need to change

In Manitoba we receive CPAP machines free but have to pay for any machine that has a smart card or SD card.

The machine I received at no cost is an M series but after 6 months I use the M series as a back up unit and for travelling as I purchased a PR system one PRO
machine with the humidifier for $1080.00 from our local equipment provider.

$2300 is a horrendous amount of money!!!!!!! Sounds like your really getting ripped off.

[dtsm]

LOL

In HK and Taiwan, S8 & S9 each costs about $2600 from authorized dealer, and usually not covered by insurance....

[cpap'er]

The price of a Repironics PR System one in Canada is approx. $2300.00 as apposed to the US price of approx $700-800
Those are not isolated items...all things CPAP are inflated hundreds of dollars more than the US prices here in Canada.

Things need to change

In Manitoba we receive CPAP machines free but have to pay for any machine that has a smart card or SD card.

The machine I received at no cost is an M series but after 6 months I use the M series as a back up unit and for travelling as I purchased a PR system one PRO
machine with the humidifier for $1080.00 from our local equipment provider.

$2300 is a horrendous amount of money!!!!!!! Sounds like your really getting ripped off.

I cant believe that other provinces have measures in place for helaping people without insurance plans...I hear that Ontario gets part of the cost paid for while your saying Manitobins get a basic CPAP for free.....Here in Nova Scotia we are so far in debt the province only hopes that people with mediacl problems would die off so they can save money...we get nothing here we only just got sunday shopping and thats with strict limitations...we are soo far back in time im surprised we have electricity and running water...lol

[Hawthorne]

Health care in Canada is a Provincial matter. That's why we have variations in what happens when a person is diagnosed with sleep apnea for example.

In Ontario there is the Assistive Device program which pays for 3/4 of the cost of a basic setup (machine, humidifier, hose, mask, initial filters). MOST extended health insurance will cover all or most of the remainder. That SOUNDS great but there are certain restrictions -like no auto unless you meet a certain criteria - must have a fairly new prescription to get a cpap machine at all, even a basic one.

An understanding and co-operative Sleep Specialist can prescribe a better machine, if they are willing.

Wait times for sleep studies through the hospital, where I live anyway, are very long and the followup with the Specialist even longer.

We also have a private sleep clinic where I live - covered by OHIP, self referral is accepted, wait times about a week. I checked into it and the Doctor is fully qualified and can get you the Government Assistive Devices Program. That's where I'll go if I need or want another sleep study! It is frowned upon by the "established" medical community but, after 2 sleep studies with the hospital connected one, I don't care!

For the last 2 years I have bought online with my old (almost 8 year old) prescription for about 1/4 of the price for machines and masks as well as everything else cpap related. I will be continuing to do that unless there are significant changes in Ontario.

[ChrisC]

I guess theres many reasons this whole price gouge is happening...Julie mentioned too it is a fairly small market of us that is increasing daily but for the most part any market that is dependant on only certain places to get products will be at the mercy of what ever the sellers wish to charge. Kinda like clothing for big and tall people...there are only so many places you can buy jeans with a 54 waist and the retaiers selling then take advantage of the fact you dont have many choices if you wanna wear clothing and not go around nakid....anyway you cut it up we are still being screwed over the barrel...lol

I never thought of it like Rooster explained...Canada has always been a place of very little competition in any market..we see that here in Nova Scotia where since the telephone was invented we only had one telephone company and that meant no alternative if you didn't like their prices for telephone service...in the past few years we now have one other company now competing which makes it bit better but still not as good as it could be with multiple service providers. Competition is good...

That wasnt me that started that newbie thread Rooster...lol

Retailers selling products in a limited market (ie; Big and Tall clothing) aren't taking advantage of you: you pay a premium for a product sold to a niche/small market. Mass produced/consumed goods are naturally lower in price because they simply are sold in a greater volume. I suspect it's the case with CPAP supplies here in Canada too: we're a much smaller market than our neighbours to the south, and retailers charge a premium to meet the same profit margin as a larger market would achieve. They pay more for the equipment, and have to charge more in turn.

I work for a DME selling mostly ambulatory aids and compression garments. I know that the walkers we sell could be purchased in the US for likely 2/3 of the price. I know that a customer could easily jump on eBay and buy the $100 compression socks we sell for half the price. That being said, my cost on these goods is also considerably higher than my competition south of the border. Also, being a smaller market (5000 people in the town) our business volume is substantially less. We're providing an essential service to the people in the community, who pay a premium to have that service available locally.

I'm not saying there aren't retailers who take advantage, but they're not all out to get you.