Mouth Breathing....Multiple humidifiers in sequence

sleepyboy · Post by **sleepyboy** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:08 pm

I am relatively new to treatment for my sleep apnea. I am hoping others will read this post and can provide relevant solutions and/or descriptions of their own similiar experiences. Any responses would be much appreciated.

Since I have been a mouth breather all my life, it seems that this will be very difficult to change. It makes it impossible to use a mask that uses only the nose to supply pressure. I have tried full face masks and the Fisher and Paykel Oracle 2 mask. BOTH of these cause intolerable dryness of my mouth. I have been able to solve the dryness problem by using the Oracle 2 mask with three humidifiers rigged up in sequence. However if I use a full face mask the excess humidity ends up in my face as well as my mouth which is messy. The problem with using the three humidifiers in sequence is that I am sure it interferes with getting the proper pressures/ readings from my auto-CPAP. I still wake up during the night, take my mask off while sleeping, and dont notice a lot of benefit from CPAP usage.

Anyone share these issues? Have solutions?

Sleepyboy

Sleeper · Post by **Sleeper** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:46 pm

sleepyboy-

What model xpap machine and HH units are you using?

sleepyboy · Post by **sleepyboy** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:24 am

I am using Resmed Auto Set Spirit with Humidare 3i humidifier built in. This is connected to a Fisher Paykel humidifier which is connected to a Breas humidifier.

dsm · Post by **dsm** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:24 am

All I can say is WOW !!! I would love to see a photo - must look like Frankenstien's lab

But one minor correction, if you have a spirit - the h/h is a 2i. The 3i is for the S8 family.

I am an inveterate mouth breather & would be dead (in regard to xPAP) without my ResMed Mirage f/f mask.

All my attempts todate to use nasal masks (have a cupboard full), fail.

Am still working on a solution.

Goodluck

DSM

dkeat · Post by **dkeat** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:58 am

sleepyboy wrote:
Since I have been a mouth breather all my life,

I too was convinced that I was a mouth breather. I went through all the agony of trying to use FF masks and the Oracle. Finally I ended up taping my mouth shut, wearing a chin strap and using a nasal mask. Now I am getting some sleep and I think with time I will be able to dispense with the constraints.

BP · Post by BP » Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:34 am

Couple of points.

First, I have been a mouth breather all my life as well. That means nothing now. As humans, we can be trained! Now I exclusively use an Aura nasal pillows system and am far happier for it. While I do have a ff mask for sick days, haven't used it yet, the larger surface area of the seal increases opportunity for leaks.

Second, you may want to invest in an inexpensive manometer. With three humidifiers in sequence it may be wise to get an accurate measure of your pressure at the interface (mask), to make sure you're not getting a pressure drop. They are less than $40 here,

https://www.cpap.com

Good luck,
BP

rested gal · Post by **rested gal** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:26 am

With three humidifiers in sequence it may be wise to get an accurate measure of your pressure at the interface (mask), to make sure you're not getting a pressure drop.

Excellent idea about checking that with a manometer, BP. I'd also be worried about the feedback the autopap was getting from my breathing...and how well the machine could interpret it. I doubt there's any way to see how that's going, short of using the whole setup in a sleep lab to see what events showed up in a PSG while using the Spirit and the line of humidifiers.

I used an Oracle off and on (mostly OFF..lol) and understand what you're talking about, sleepyboy...the extremely dry mouth.

I personally think the Fisher and Paykel HC 150 heated humidifier puts out more heated humidification at its highest setting than do the integrated humidifiers that people can get with machines. A plus is that if a person gets another brand of cpap machine, the separate F&P humidifier can work with it. But an integrated humidifier for one machine won't work with another brand of machine.

sleepyboy, if I were you, I'd get the Aussie heated hose from sleepzone.com.au. That will let more humidification reach you. Might be the straw that keeps the camel's humps of humidifiers you've got from letting you dry out...LOL!! Might even let you use just the HC 150 alone tolerably well.

If you were using your Spirit in straight cpap mode, your arrangement of multiple humidifiers might be ok (do check it at the mask with a manometer.) But with any AUTOPAP, I really would be concerned about how well an autopap's algorithms could interpret the returning air flow from you.

Looking at data via software wouldn't necessarily tell you what's really happening (or not happening) with such an unconventional setup. As -SWS said once:

"Perhaps the biggest fallacy I have seen repeatedly mentioned on these message boards is that when a patient's AutoPAP cannot successfully treat their SDB [sleep disordered breathing] events, then at least their overnight data is going to be accurate. Nothing could really be further from the truth."

He was talking about overnight data via software for the autopap....data from your airflow going BACK to the autopap through so many humidifiers might skew things considerably. Data-wise, "garbarge in - garbage out"...maybe. Dunno.

Nonetheless, you get a gold medal as a lab-rat trying your best to fix a dry mouth problem!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 1:02 pm

The data feedback line would still connect to the autopap directly form the long HOSE...not through the humidfifiers, so I don't see that they would skew the results.

Every connection is an opportunity for leaks, however. Humidity can only reach 100% and we all see this accomplished via water in our hoses with our humidifiers set less than the highest setting.

I would say to use the largest capacity humidifier on it's highest setting, with a heated hose to maintain the moisture, and loose the other two.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:11 pm

Nope three hoses going to two humidifiers plus the built in one on the Spirit and with all that air space to travel in the humidifiers will skew the results the Spirit has a setting for long hose at a maximum of three meters that it can accurately handle. Air is compressible not fluid like.

dsm · Post by **dsm** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:35 pm

[quote="Anonymous"]The data feedback line would still connect to the autopap directly form the long HOSE...not through the humidfifiers, so I don't see that they would skew the results.

Every connection is an opportunity for leaks, however. Humidity can only reach 100% and we all see this accomplished via water in our hoses with our humidifiers set less than the highest setting.

I would say to use the largest capacity humidifier on it's highest setting, with a heated hose to maintain the moisture, and loose the other two.

Mask

Mask

Machine	Mask

Mouth Breathing....Multiple humidifiers in sequence

Mouth Breathing....Multiple humidifiers in sequence

humidifiers in sequence

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