Time to Hold Sleep Doctors, DMEs and Sleep Labs Accountable

[sleepycarol]

For those that might have missed this post.

This can be our way of making our voices heard on which providers are keepers, and which need to be taken down a notch or two.

[Kiralynx]

Duly posted.

[sleepguide]

we've noticed that the overwhelming majority of reviews have been positive so far. Very few negative reviews. That was unexpected.

[Muffy]

Why can't we just use the cpap.com finder:

sleep-professionals.php?page=local

Your site's kinda slow, so overall, you're not gonna get a lot of input, nor will a lot of people go there to research anyway.

I don't think the correct approach to fixing this mess is "take them down a notch ot two", because that will just make matters worse, and besides, you aren't going to be able to do that anyway.

Muffy

[LinkC]

I see that a common thread on the forums, including cpaptalk, is frustration over the incompetence and mistreatment we patients suffer at the hands of sleep professionals.

While those POSTS are quite common here, I don't think you can infer that is the norm. Who posts a rant about a GOOD experience? It's a "silent majority" thing.

Also, I think it's a mistake to have anonymous reviews/evaluations. I put a lot more stock in a statement someone is accountable for. (Even just by username.) Otherwise, you'll just be another pity-party. There are already plenty of those.

Just my $.03...

[sleepguide]

While those POSTS are quite common here, I don't think you can infer that is the norm. Who posts a rant about a GOOD experience? It's a "silent majority" thing.

Also, I think it's a mistake to have anonymous reviews/evaluations. I put a lot more stock in a statement someone is accountable for. (Even just by username.) Otherwise, you'll just be another pity-party. There are already plenty of those.

Just my $.03...

Valid point. But so far, we allow anonymity and most all the reviews have been positive. Also, I think that users of the site will be intelligent enough not to accept negative statements at face value, but to evaluate them in the full context of a reviewer's tone/ statements, irrespective of the reviewer's username.

[Muffy]

Also, I think that users of the site will be intelligent enough not to accept negative statements at face value, but to evaluate them in the full context of a reviewer's tone/ statements, irrespective of the reviewer's username.

Another valid point, because all I see in your posts:

... the site at http://www.SleepSearch.com has the potential to fill exactly the need you describe -- finding a doctor who's "not stupid" -- problem is, without folks like you and me writing up reviews on the SleepSearch site about which doctors are stupid and which doctors are not stupid, ....

. see that a common thread on the forums, including cpaptalk, is frustration over the incompetence and mistreatment we patients suffer at the hands of sleep professionals.

is a hate-monger trying to stir up trouble.

BTW, who are you trying to impress with your post:

Rant: Where the F is the PR System One Patient Software!?

because nobody on that site has the SFI how to use it anyway.

Muffy

[jnk]

I think it is easy for righteous indignation over patients who have fallen through the cracks to sound like an indictment of all sleep professionals, but I am not under the impression that disdain or "hate" for everyone in the profession was ever the intention of sleepguide's posts here or elsewhere. Sleepguide.com has professionals associated with it, including sleep doctors, therapists, techs, and DME managers, so I have never perceived any "hate-mongering" or stirring up trouble, myself--just recognition that the system is less than perfect and that some professionals may be doing a better job than others.

Personally, I am not surprised about the positive reviews of sleep professionals from the people here. Much of what I've learned on this site and at Sleepguide.com has increased my respect for the jobs done by professionals and the challenges they face. I think our expectations are sometimes skewed in that we expect from a sleep doc what we should expect from a therapist or tech, and many of us are disappointed in the effectiveness of our therapy, and that frustration gets expressed in patients' posts in forums and in how they speak of their team.

My perception is that the creation of Sleepguide.com was based partly on the idea of patients using software to monitor their own therapy in cooperation with their medical team. Thus the statements about the need for patient software.

The only statement I have seen in this thread that might be misread as wholesale denigrating, or dislike-mongering, so far, from my point of view, is the following statement:

. . . because nobody on that site has the SFI how to use it anyway. . . .

I am on that site. But I forgive you, Muffy. And one day I would like to introduce you to Molette, a very bright and helpful poster over there.

That having been said, I have not filled out a review of my sleep doc, myself. Here's why. I like him. He was exactly what I needed. But he may not be exactly what some other patient needs. I have no way of knowing, though. He does not seem to be a hand-holder and does not seem to me to involve himself in the details of therapy. But he is fully supportive of my efforts to make my therapy work and has been an advocate for me with dealing with a problematic DME. He is responsive over the phone, but does not schedule office visits to check on me. That meets my expectations perfectly, but from what I've read, others would be disappointed with that approach. For all I know, though, he would alter his approach for patients with other expectations. Again, I have no way of knowing.

In fact, the whole idea that patients can effectively judge which docs are "stupid" and which aren't, based only on their single experience, is a somewhat foreign thought to me. Like I said, my doc doesn't seem to know much about home machines, but I still think him to be a brilliant man from what I can tell. Someone else, though, might consider him useless as a doctor for not knowing home machines inside and out. So I hesitate to post a review based on my assumptions of what he might or might not do for others. For that and similar reasons, I would likely question reviews from other patients on sleep docs, too, anonymous or otherwise.

On the other hand, the idea of reviews of specific DMEs does make sense to me. Not so much to condemn, but to hold up the good ones as examples and to foster competition in that aspect of the sleep industry. I think it is useful for patients to hear about the experiences of other patients in dealing with DMEs, online and otherwise, because I would hope that might allow the cream to rise to the top of public consciousness. And I have a feeling CPAP.com would win that contest hands down.

The above is just my individual take on some complicated issues, and other takes are certainly as valid as mine, probably more so, in view of my relative inexperience.

jeff

[Uncle_Bob]

Its been 4 hours now and i'm still waiting for the validation email

[Slinky]

Check to make sure it didn't get caught in your Spam filter.

[sleepguide]

Its been 4 hours now and i'm still waiting for the validation email

I just set all the users in "pending" state to "active" so you should be able to login now. I do wonder whether what happened was that the activation link got stuck in your email's Spam filter.

[Muffy]

...but I am not under the impression that disdain or "hate" for everyone in the profession was ever the intention of sleepguide's posts here or elsewhere.

Good point. Perhaps I should have said "boorish behavior":

viewtopic/p446913/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4 ... 73#p368573

I am on that site.

Great. What's the latest on the Colts?

And one day I would like to introduce you to Molette, a very bright and helpful poster over there

Your Forum Champion, eh? Fine, let's see what she's working with.

On the other hand, the idea of reviews of specific DMEs does make sense to me. Not so much to condemn, but to hold up the good ones as examples and to foster competition in that aspect of the sleep industry. I think it is useful for patients to hear about the experiences of other patients in dealing with DMEs, online and otherwise, because I would hope that might allow the cream to rise to the top of public consciousness.

That makes no sense whatsoever. The reviews would never be in great enough number to be statistically significant, couldn't be current (reflect problems that were fixed), account for atypical behavior (poor performance that is the exception to an otherwise acceptable standard of practice), have any ability to alter performance when there are few or no choices for the consumer (the "Oh yeah? Make me!" philosophy) or prevent sabotage (if there are unscrupulous people out there, how long do you think it will take before they realize that the easiest way to make themselves look good is make the competition look bad?)

If the solution to the above issues are "Gee, it'll take work, but we can do it together", well GFL on that one, let me know how you make out.

Or "If an untoward comment is posted, then it would would be up to the innocent to prove that they're not guilty", then explain to Mr. Barrister there how the US legal system is supposed to work.

And I have a feeling CPAP.com would win that contest hands down.

Great, then I think we should support our hosts:

sleep-professionals.php?page=local

Remember them?

Muffy

[jnk]

I think you and I may likely agree on this topic more than we differ. You make good points, per usual. I think this kind of open discussion is useful.

...but I am not under the impression that disdain or "hate" for everyone in the profession was ever the intention of sleepguide's posts here or elsewhere.

Good point. Perhaps I should have said "boorish behavior":

viewtopic/p446913/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4 ... 73#p368573

I went to the link. I particularly appreciated this statement:

. . . It seems quite obvious to me that the Sleep Laboratory, whether it was accredited or not, failed to provide what is considered "standard of care", which would have helped to protect patient, staff and organization. . . .

I applaud you for saying that. That is a constructive statement to make, and it takes on a certain weight coming from you. This forum provided you the opportunity to make it, even though your having made it will not likely change the world. I believe it is in a similar spirit that sites like Sleepguide are attempting to give patients a voice. I don't think the new endeavor is likely to change the world, either, and it isn't perfect, but I am willing to give a nod to the idea of it in case some good comes from it.

On the other hand, the idea of reviews of specific DMEs does make sense to me. Not so much to condemn, but to hold up the good ones as examples and to foster competition in that aspect of the sleep industry. I think it is useful for patients to hear about the experiences of other patients in dealing with DMEs, online and otherwise, because I would hope that might allow the cream to rise to the top of public consciousness.

That makes no sense whatsoever. The reviews would never be in great enough number to be statistically significant, couldn't be current (reflect problems that were fixed), account for atypical behavior (poor performance that is the exception to an otherwise acceptable standard of practice), have any ability to alter performance when there are few or no choices for the consumer (the "Oh yeah? Make me!" philosophy) or prevent sabotage (if there are unscrupulous people out there, how long do you think it will take before they realize that the easiest way to make themselves look good is make the competition look bad?)

If the solution to the above issues are "Gee, it'll take work, but we can do it together", well GFL on that one, let me know how you make out.

Or "If an untoward comment is posted, then it would would be up to the innocent to prove that they're not guilty", then explain to Mr. Barrister there how the US legal system is supposed to work.

And I have a feeling CPAP.com would win that contest hands down.

Great, then I think we should support our hosts:

sleep-professionals.php?page=local

Remember them?

Muffy

Good points. But just as CPAPtalk.com, imperfect as it is, is the best thing going for educating and helping patients who have fallen through the cracks, I still try to applaud other efforts to give people a voice, whether it accomplishes much in the grand scheme in the long run or not.

As for the specific feelings of our host on the endeavors over at sleepguide.com, I believe that Johnny's sentiments were worded well, in harmony with my point and with yours, in his statement made to them:

SleepGuide/Mike, someone has to speak truth to power. I think your heart is in the right place and I hope your blog grows. Be sure to do all the research before you stir the pot.

I assume Johnny's sentiments are likely still similar to those words, but my views on welcoming crossposts from sleepguide would be affected, of course, were Johnny to say something more on that now or in the future.

I appreciate what you do, Muffy. I particularly appreciate your generosity in allowing some of us newer ones to find our voice, even when we are a little clumsy in how we go about it at times.

jeff

[carbonman]

I think that the "post a review" of a product or service,
is worthless.

I'm going to buy a __________________ from ______________ store.
I surf out to a few sites and check the reviews.
I read 10 reviews.
5 rate the product as the best thing since sliced bread.
5 rate the product as junk.

What have I learned that will benefit me in my purchase decision??

Life is a crap shoot.......
..you pays your money...and you takes your chances.

[jnk]

I think that the "post a review" of a product or service,
is worthless.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=34912&p=299717#p299717