Looking to understand data and charts

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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jccameron
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Looking to understand data and charts

Post by jccameron » Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:38 am

I know it is early in the life of my cpap usage (9 days) but I was fortunate enough to get a copy of the analyizer software and want to fully understand what I am looking at and trying to achieve.

I've provided some of the overview data / charts and the info for some of the specific days (one's where it appears it actually works).

My layman's analysis is that:

1) Overall, with the cpap, things are likely to be improving since my AHI is fairly low
2) When I awake and take the mask off, it is almost always at the point of highest pressure. Either the events are awakening me or the pressure is.
3) I need to address leaks in my mask as at the higher pressures, it is clearly leaking. I took my mask apart completely to clean it and re-did all the straps trying to help ensure no nose bridge issues. I think I went a little too far in loosening it.

I would love any feedback or comments anyone can provide.

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Text Overview of 9 Days

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Graphic Overview of 9 Days

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Day 3

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Day 4

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Day 5 (High AHI)

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Day 7 (Practiced while watching tv and then managed to keep it on all night)

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Day 9

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Summary 9 Day Analysis

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----------------

Thanks for taking the time to provide feedback!

-jc

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BleepingBeauty
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Re: Looking to understand data and charts

Post by BleepingBeauty » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:37 am

Hi, jc, and welcome to the forum. Thanks for posting your software graphs. I've never seen the data from F&P before.

Three things jump out at me immediately re: your data. First, you're not spending enough time sleeping and seem to be going to bed pretty late. Try to adopt a good sleep hygiene regimen. Go to bed earlier, and do your best to wear the mask all night long.

Second (and most important), your leak is way out of control. You have no chance at effective therapy with leaks like those. For your mask (the Quattro) at your pressure range (5-10cm), your leak rate should be between 25 and 36 liters per minute. You have to readjust your mask so that the leaks are within normal limits.

Third, it seems you're spending a good deal of your time asleep at higher pressures within your set range. Eventually, you may need to adjust your pressure settings a bit higher, but I'll leave that potential discussion to the more experienced users of Auto machines here.

But the first thing you have to do is get your leaks under control. The ResMed site has many fitting videos for the Quattro (here: http://www.resmed.com/us/products/mirag ... s&sec=true). Best of luck getting a good fit, after which you can work on getting more effective therapy.
Veni, vidi, Velcro. I came, I saw, I stuck around.

Dx 11/07: AHI 107, central apnea, Cheyne Stokes respiration, moderate-severe O2 desats. (Simple OSA would be too easy. ;))

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Hawthorne
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Re: Looking to understand data and charts

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:43 am

Not many people on the forum have this machine so you may not get many replies. There are a couple things reported in the Performance Maximizer software that most of us have not seen before.

It looks like you are doing not too badly for someone new to therapy though.

I can only comment from my experience with my machine and software. There are SOME similarities.

My machine does not have "Sensawake". I assume that means you were not asleep but had the mask and machine on. You do need to get more time asleep but that comes, for most people, in time. The fact that you tried the machine and mask, and watched TV with it all running one night is something I think you should try that more often to get used to it and to work on leaks.

I am thinking that, if I am reading it right, you have it set at 5 cm minimum and 11 cm maximum. You should move the minimum pressure up 1 cm at a time and only raise it more every 4 days or more to get some data to compare. You are close to your maximum pressure a lot of the therapy time. That 6 cm difference you have right now, means it takes a long time for you to get to therapy pressure. What was your titrated pressure? Your minimum should not be much below that but it's good to take time to move it up so that you can adjust to higher pressures. Even your titrated pressure may not be correct, since it is based on 1 night's sleep. It looks, to me, like your minimum may end up closer to 8 cm.

I am not sure I am reading the data correctly since, I have never seen it before and can only compare it with my Encore Viewer reports.

Someone else, who has this machine and software, can be more help to you. There may only be 1 or 2 others on the forum.

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jccameron
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Re: Looking to understand data and charts

Post by jccameron » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:59 am

Bleeping Beauty, thanks for the quick reply and feedback. I really do appreciate it.

Unfortunately, my natural circadian rhythm is a late night one. I usually get to bed between midnight and 1AM and up between 8-9AM. That's huge improvement over the past both in actual time in bed and when I am able to get to bed. My goal is to get it back down one more hour (between 11PM and midnight) but right now that is secondary.

As for the amount of time in bed, it is generally within reasonable guidelines (7-9 hours). I am just struggling to keep the mask on the whole time - I often wake up in the morning to find it off and have no memory of taking it off. I am getting more comfortable with it on so my hope that this issue will decrease with time and I'll keep it on longer and longer each night.

As for the leaks, yes, that was my concern and a big reason why I wanted to get the data. I've had a couple of days where the bridge on my nose was red and pretty sore so trying to find that perfect fit. Unfortunately, because of nasal issues (deviated septum) I am a mouth breather and need a full mask.

As for the range, I did lower the max from 11 to 10 to see if I could get used to the max over a time. I am starting to get a better appreciation for how everything works and it sounds like you might be right but am waiting for more detail and a chance to talk with a specialist or my doctor.

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Hawthorne
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Re: Looking to understand data and charts

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:08 pm

I don't think it is the maximum pressure you need to change. I think you need to gradually raise the minimum.

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jccameron
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Re: Looking to understand data and charts

Post by jccameron » Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:15 pm

Hawthorne,

Thanks as well and a big thanks out to the the two folx here at the forum that got me connected with the F&P software. It sure does make a huge difference in being able to understand what is going on when you are asleep. This seems like it should be a requirement (easy access to seeing your data) because without it, you can waste so much time not making any improvements at all (for example, clearly, leaks are huge for me but when I go to bed, that is not even remotely obvious).

Regarding Sensawake - correct, it has a feature that it identifies when you are awake and adjusts the pressure so that it is tolerated easier.

My original sleep report says that my AHI was reduced to under 5 with a pressure of 8cm or higher. I assume that this is my titration number?

Thanks again (for both your posts) and I am going to increase the min tonight and work on getting the leaks lowered.

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BleepingBeauty
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Re: Looking to understand data and charts

Post by BleepingBeauty » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:08 pm

jccameron wrote:Bleeping Beauty, thanks for the quick reply and feedback. I really do appreciate it.

Unfortunately, my natural circadian rhythm is a late night one. I usually get to bed between midnight and 1AM and up between 8-9AM. That's huge improvement over the past both in actual time in bed and when I am able to get to bed. My goal is to get it back down one more hour (between 11PM and midnight) but right now that is secondary.
Mine was, too. Former confirmed night-owl here. But I'm now in bed well before 11:00 most every night, and I'm sleeping better than I ever have before. Keep working on an earlier bedtime, and I bet you'll see good results from the effort.
As for the amount of time in bed, it is generally within reasonable guidelines (7-9 hours). I am just struggling to keep the mask on the whole time - I often wake up in the morning to find it off and have no memory of taking it off. I am getting more comfortable with it on so my hope that this issue will decrease with time and I'll keep it on longer and longer each night.
It's not uncommon to remove the mask during the night (and not remember doing so) in the early days of therapy. It's good that you're becoming more comfortable with it. But frankly, any time you spend in bed without the mask on is useless, from a therapy standpoint. It's counter-productive. Some people use medical tape around the outer edge of the mask, sticking it to their face; if they subconsciously try to remove the mask in the middle of the night, the tape will pull at their skin, reminding them to keep the mask on. Or you might try wearing mittens to bed, so you don't have the dexterity needed to remove the mask easily, and you'll wake up enough to realize you're doing it.
As for the leaks, yes, that was my concern and a big reason why I wanted to get the data. I've had a couple of days where the bridge on my nose was red and pretty sore so trying to find that perfect fit. Unfortunately, because of nasal issues (deviated septum) I am a mouth breather and need a full mask.
I wear a full-face mask, too. The trick, with any mask, is getting it to fit you well with little leaking. Small adjustments are best when it comes to masks. Re: making changes or adjustments to your therapy, do those one thing at a time, and give each change a few nights before making any further adjustments. You need to be able to isolate and identify what works for you and what doesn't.
As for the range, I did lower the max from 11 to 10 to see if I could get used to the max over a time. I am starting to get a better appreciation for how everything works and it sounds like you might be right but am waiting for more detail and a chance to talk with a specialist or my doctor.
Talking with your physician is a good idea. But I think both Hawthorne and I were advising you to raise the pressure a bit (especially the minimum). You're spending a good deal of time at the ceiling pressure of 10, which would indicate that the machine would go higher if it could, but it's impossible to say that for sure until the leaks are controlled.

As it stands, you can't really trust your AHI numbers (or determine your actual pressure needs) because your leaks make the rest of the data suspect. (The pressure might be rising to the ceiling simply because your leaks are so high that the machine can't compensate for them.)
jccameron wrote: My original sleep report says that my AHI was reduced to under 5 with a pressure of 8cm or higher. I assume that this is my titration number?


Sounds like it. So I question why your range is 5-10cm, if it takes 8cm to bring your AHI into normal range. I'm no expert, but I'd set the minimum pressure at 7cm. 5 is way too low for most of us, and if 8 is needed, why start at 5?
Thanks again (for both your posts) and I am going to increase the min tonight and work on getting the leaks lowered.
Good plan, jc. Keep us posted.
Veni, vidi, Velcro. I came, I saw, I stuck around.

Dx 11/07: AHI 107, central apnea, Cheyne Stokes respiration, moderate-severe O2 desats. (Simple OSA would be too easy. ;))

PR S1 ASV 950, DreamWear mask, F&P 150 humidifier, O2 @ 2L.

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Hawthorne
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Re: Looking to understand data and charts

Post by Hawthorne » Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:52 pm

Given your data, I would have guessed that you titrated pressure was around 8 cm and it as. As BB and I said, starting at 5 if your titrated pressure is 8 is not helpful to proper therapy.

I'm glad you plan to raise it. I expect that your minimum pressure will be at least 8 cm. You seem to spend quite a bit of your night close to your maximum so 8 cms minimum should not be hard for you to handle.

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rosiefrosie
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Re: Looking to understand data and charts

Post by rosiefrosie » Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:35 pm

BleepingBeauty is giving you very good advice.

rosie

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Re: Looking to understand data and charts

Post by jweeks » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:47 pm

Hi,

In looking at your data, I see periods of time with no events, then periods of time with a lot of events. Any idea what you are doing different between those two time periods? I wonder if you are changing position? Many folks, myself included, are position sensitive. I cannot get effective treatment on my back no matter what the pressure. I do better on my right side than my left side. I suspect you might have something similar. Try sleeping as long as you can in one position, then try a different position the next night, and see if it makes a difference. Just an idea...

-john-

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jccameron
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Re: Looking to understand data and charts

Post by jccameron » Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:42 am

Thanks for the suggestion John. Yes, I have much less apnea on my side than on my back but almost always find myself on my back in the end (even when I used to sleep on my stomach). Thinking about options to help keep me on my side for the night.

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Re: Looking to understand data and charts

Post by elg5cats » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:18 am

Wow, impressive software data..............I know you are new to your machine, what are your thoughts thus far and willl be interesting to see what you thoughts are when you are more adjusted to the treatment. Hang in there and keep working at it!

elg5cats

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Re: Looking to understand data and charts

Post by GaryG » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:18 am

I''ve got a question that applies to jccameron as well as to myself. Based on my results, I have a need to increase my lower setting on my range. (I am at 8-15 and I think I need to go to 10-15 or 10-14). But, OTOH, although I have reduced my leaks, I am still around 24 L/Min on good nights, which is about the upper limit I want to have for leakage. And I am concerned if I increase pressure at all, my leaks will increase, so I've been working really hard to get leaks down.

I know there's no simple formula, but how can we increase our lower range when leakage is also a concern?

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jccameron
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Re: Looking to understand data and charts

Post by jccameron » Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:49 am

elg5cats - I am impressed with the software and the data it provides. This should be standard (or at least offered free of charge) for every cpap machine. Without this data, I would honestly have no idea how I am doing (like, when I take off my mask - which I do almost every night) and how bad the leaks are when the pressure goes up.

The DME who brought my machine spent roughly 5 minutes with me explaining how the machine works and about 30 seconds putting my mask on. I can see why there is such a high failure rate for people sticking with it.

I have started keeping a daily record of what happened during the night (when to bed, how long to bed, when mask came off, how long on cpap, how I felt when I woke, how I felt later in the day). That and the software data should (I hope) give me a good sense within a month or so if this is making my life better. With my numbers, I was told by my pulmonologist I could live without the cpap machine because my oxygen levels are just over the borderline...but that it could make a huge difference in my quality of life.

---

GaryG - Same issue with me - as the pressure goes up, the leaks increase dramatically. Slow increases and minor adjustments...and keep studying the results. I completely took apart my mask last night and started from scratch and it helped make a difference. My goal is to get it consistently under 50 and then slowly test the increased pressure and leak results.

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Re: Looking to understand data and charts

Post by GaryG » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:22 pm

I think the allowable leakage rate may be mask dependent. Maybe someone more experienced can comment on allowable leakage rate. I thought I read in my documentation that My Liberty Hybrid had a comment about 24 L/Min being the acceptable limit.

In any case, you're well on the way to getting the therapy going in the right direction. You found this site, you have a machine that records data, and you have the software. Now its just a matter of getting your mask comfortable with low leakage or playing the mask bait and switch game until you find the mask that works.