Do errors damage the credibility of the writer

[jnk]

Would any of the outed proof readers have a favorite english grammer text?

I don't do much real proofreading anymore (all the best at it are female, imo, and I can't spell worth a darn), but I do second Marsha's vote for The Gregg Reference Manual. Although, if I were stuck on a desert island and only allowed one book for setting up an entire publishing operation, I would probably want Words into Type. The main thing you need for a reference grammar book is a good index for quick access, or you won't use it when you have time constraints. Other than the desert island thing, I would definitely go with Marsha's excellent recommendation for Gregg.

[Songbird]

Here's some fun reading I found at http://www.professorcornbread.com/humor ... adline.php:

Funny Headlines and Advertising Mistakes

What Are They Saying?
Grandmother of eight makes hole in one.
Deaf mute gets new hearing in killing.
Police begin campaign to run down jaywalkers.
House passes gas tax onto senate.
Stiff opposition expected to casket less funeral plan.
Two convicts evade noose, jury hung.
William Kelly was fed secretary.
Milk drinkers are turning to powder.
Safety experts say school bus passengers should be belted.
Quarter of a million Chinese live on water.
Farmer bill dies in house.
Iraqi head seeks arms.

Some ads are unintentionally suggestive:
Queen Mary is having bottom scraped.
Is there a ring of debris around Uranus?
Prostitutes appeal to Pope.
Panda mating fails, veterinarian takes over.
NJ judge to rule on nude beach.
Child’s stool great for garden use.
Dr. Ruth to talk about sex with newspaper editors.
Soviet virgin land short of goal again.
Organ festival ends in smashing climax.

Grammar often botches other headlines
Eye drops off shelf.
Squad helps dog bite victim.
Dealers will hear car talk at noon.
Enraged cow injures farmer with ax.
Lawmen from Mexico barbecue guests.
Miners refuse to work after death.
Two Soviet ships collide, one dies.
Two sisters reunite after eighteen years at checkout counter.

Once in a while, a botched headline takes on a meaning opposite of the intended one:
Never withhold herpes from loved one.
Nicaragua sets goal to wipe out literacy.
Drunk drivers paid $1,000 in 1984
Autos killing 110 a day, let’s resolve to do better.

Sometimes newspaper editors state the obvious:
If strike isn’t settled quickly, it may last a while.
War dims hope for peace.
Smokers are productive, but death cuts efficiency.
Cold wave linked to temperatures.
Child’s death ruins couple’s holiday.
Blind woman gets new kidney from dad she hasn’t seen in years.
Man is fatally slain.
Something went wrong in jet crash, experts say.
Death causes loneliness, feeling of isolation.

Ads that didn't translate so good: Well. Didn't translate so well.
“Bite the wax tadpole.” Coca-Cola as originally translated into Chinese.
“Pepsi bring your ancestors back from the grave.” Pepsi ad slogan ‘Pepsi Comes Alive’ as originally translated into Chinese.
“It takes a virile man to make a chicken pregnant.” Purdue chicken ad as mistranslated in Arabic. Whaddya think, Rooster?
“Mitsubishi Masturbates.” The Spanish translation for Mitsubishi Pajero.

Marsha

[Wulfman]

Absolutely! The way we express ourselves verbally speaks volumes. If one cannot describe his thoughts in cogent sentences, why would we assume he's capable of forming valid opinions from data found elsewhere?

If one consistently makes grammar and spelling errors it implies one of two things: he doesn't know better; or he doesn't care. Either way it degrades the perceived value of his thoughts.

We all make the occasional typo (well, *I* don't but this isn't about me... ), and I don't hold that against anyone. But if one repeatedly demonstrates an inability or unwillingness to communicate in proper English I have a lower confidence level in what he says.

(One free " " to the first one to find the error above...)

LinkC,

This response is not necessarily directed at YOU. Just using some of what you said to try to make a point or two.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are we talking about the forum or about communicating, in general?
Written or verbal communications?

Considering the fact that this forum (and the Internet) reaches around the world to many people whose primary language is NOT English, I think this hangup with "proper English" is or should be a non-issue.

I think most languages have a formal/written form and the spoken/vernacular form(s), dialects and expressions that are unique to different areas.

I'm often amazed at how well some of our members (from other countries) manage to navigate the English language.
I took a year of high school Spanish and some years ago, I bought some self-teaching CD lessons for Chinese. Suffice it to say, I'm not at all fluent in either one (although I do a little better with Spanish). So, I admire those who can master multiple languages.

I TRY to use "proper English" as much as possible, but sometimes I also have fun fracturing it a bit.


Den

[tomjax]

I have made about a million postings or replies to various forums(fora).
It is rare that I do not revies them later and come up with another million thisgs I should have said differently.
Add a word.
delete a word.
notice I did not do a proper spell check.
Truly regret something I said.

The replies here are very enlightening.
The words that come to mind at first blush is
eletism,
sarcasm.
arrogance.
narcissism.

If I were writing a letter to the editor as I sometimes do, then the satndards would be much higher.
I tend to forgive those who are in a hurry or a tad careless.

What I have trouble ignoring is those who write very eloquent with grammatical perfection, but fail to exhibit much intelligence.
Do brilliant minds make brilliant thoughts?
I think not.

I am very forgiving.
I wish others were.
I will not even spell check this.

[DoriC]

A man is in the water.
He waves to me,
Shouts words I do not understand.
He shouts again,
Waves more vigorously.
I move closer not understanding.
He sinks beneath the surface.
I am uncertain.
His words were not clear.
I wait for his reappearance,
To ask if I can help.
Moments pass,
He does not return.
I move on,
Not knowing what his question was.

Simply and beautifully stated! For me, that settles the question. May I know the name of the author?

[-SWS]

I love that as well, DoriC. Thank you for posting that, rogelah!

I TRY to use "proper English" as much as possible, but sometimes I also have fun fracturing it a bit.

Big fan of occasional fracterd English myself, Den.

[rogelah]

A man is in the water.
He waves to me,
Shouts words I do not understand.
He shouts again,
Waves more vigorously.
I move closer not understanding.
He sinks beneath the surface.
I am uncertain.
His words were not clear.
I wait for his reappearance,
To ask if I can help.
Moments pass,
He does not return.
I move on,
Not knowing what his question was.

Simply and beautifully stated! For me, that settles the question. May I know the name of the author?

I am...thanks.

[kteague]

rogelah - I was thinking about posting that I like the poem you quoted, but now that I know you're the author, I just had to let you know how insightful I found your words to be. Wow! Would enjoy reading more of your writings.
Kathy

[Songbird]

Considering the fact that this forum (and the Internet) reaches around the world to many people whose primary language is NOT English, I think this hangup with "proper English" is or should be a non-issue.

You're right, Den. It's just something that I enjoy talking about, and the nature of the beast is that the more it's discussed, the more detailed and involved it gets (until everybody drops over from boredom ). The point always should be communicating well, regardless of whether or not it qualifies as proper English.

I think most languages have a formal/written form and the spoken/vernacular form(s), dialects and expressions that are unique to different areas.

Spot-on with that one, too, and it's a principle that's taught to English majors. Which, by the way, isn't me. I just had great pre-college training and fabulous on-the-job training from fellow proofers who had been English teachers before joining our bureau. I was talking with one of them one day about how stilted "proper English" can sound, and she explained to me that using "proper English" in daily conversation can actually be wrong if it's so convoluted that people end up wandering in circles, saying "Huh?" Also, by the way, without knowing where I was raised, the same woman figured out that I grew up in central New York State by my backwards use of "bring" and "take." Turns out it's typical of the Syracuse area... something she learned in a dialect class at Penn State. (Didja know you were so smart?? ) I don't get "bring" and "take" backwards much anymore... she taught me to sing "Bring back my Bonnie to me" and "Take me out to the ball game."

I TRY to use "proper English" as much as possible, but sometimes I also have fun fracturing it a bit.

Me, too.... both for the fun of it and to remind myself not to take this stuff too seriously. Good thoughts... thanks.

Marsha

[SaltLakeJan]

Does it all rest on the meaning of the word "is"?'

Jan

[-SWS]

Does it all rest of the meaning of the word "is"?'

Jan

Okay, I don't know ALL the words used in this thread... I had to look that one up. Here are the results of my research into that word:

Answers.com
is

Did you mean: is , be , iso– (prefix), .is (abbreviation), i (in linguistics), is- More...

Dictionary: is (ĭz) pronunciation
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Home > Library > Literature & Language > Dictionary
v.

Third person singular present indicative of be.

[DoriC]

A man is in the water.
He waves to me,
Shouts words I do not understand.
He shouts again,
Waves more vigorously.
I move closer not understanding.
He sinks beneath the surface.
I am uncertain.
His words were not clear.
I wait for his reappearance,
To ask if I can help.
Moments pass,
He does not return.
I move on,
Not knowing what his question was.

Simply and beautifully stated! For me, that settles the question. May I know the name of the author?

I am...thanks.

Rogelah, I kind of thought so, that's why I timidly asked the question. I'm sure there's more where that came from, if you'd like to share.

[elg5cats]

My initial thoughts are absolutely, I prefer basic to better grammar and spelling. Then I thought about my experience of almost daily teasing about my "accent." The teasing typically includes the comment, "Where are you from?" (To which I might answer, "my mother and you?") I'm fully aware there are common negative attributions associated with my accent. I find this frequent question unacceptable and annoying when there is not a relationship involved. I imagine someone who doesn't have the best spelling or grammar skills may feel similar when they do their best, quickest or abbreviated effort to post their thoughts. There can be a difference between intellectual abilities and verbal or written language expression. Therefore, the posting may not reflect the person's intellectual abilities or true credibility. OSA is not well educated or eloquently written, has no particular language, educational level or preference for a particular person. If we are too fixated on grammar and spelling, me may fail to be available to help a OSA colleague struggling to acquire successful treatment. I may also miss sincere support or a solution when focussed on how the message is written. So if writing style is a sign of credibility, the message may be OSA supports only welcomes people with correct grammar and spelling.......thus excluding some with OSA with something to offer!

elg5cats

[spitintheocean]

A man is in the water.
He waves to me,
Shouts words I do not understand.
He shouts again,
Waves more vigorously.
I move closer not understanding.
He sinks beneath the surface.
I am uncertain.
His words were not clear.
I wait for his reappearance,
To ask if I can help.
Moments pass,
He does not return.
I move on,
Not knowing what his question was.

As I read through this thread, I was somewhat bemused that there were at least a dozen posts before someone commented on the elegance of your poetry. I am pleased to see that others have since expressed their appreciation for your insight.

I am also completely in tune with tomjax's comments while personally failing to exhibit much intelligence whenever I get sidetracked hunting down dangling participles or mangled syntax at the expense of my intended message.

[Goofproof]

Hey, I was just trying to get my resume moved higher up in the stack!

I learned long ago how to get your resume moved up the stack. I was applying for a mechanics job, the company only hired through the state employment office. I went in and told them I wanted to fill out a papers for a job at the mining corp, and was told there were 3,000 people had applied for a job at the mine. I told him I wanted to apply just the same, then when I turned in the paperwork, I let him know the number doesn't matter, it's who is going to sort the pile. I was at work in two weeks.

I not only got the job I applyed for, I was moved to a mine closer to home. Jim