OT: OBAMA SOAKS THE RICH: CHURCHES, DAY CARE, HOMELESS SHELT

[roster]

I wonder how many people died in the Crusades, admittedly the crusades were not in the twentieth century.

......

Fredman,

They will never let us forget that!

Now I will defend Christianity. Before the rise of Islam, the Middle East was predominantly Christian. Christianity was the predominant religion in Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. There were Zoroastrians in Persia and Jews in Palestine. The places where Christ was born, lived and died are in the Middle East.

Muhammad's armies conquered Jerusalem and the entire Middle East. Then they moved into Africa, Asia and Europe. They conquered parts of Italy, most of Spain and overran the Balkans. They prepared for a final excursion that would bring all of Europe under the reign of Islam.

This went on for 200 years before the Christians started a defense of the birthplace of Christianity. The Crusades were a belated, clumsy, unsuccesful attempt to defeat Islamic imperialism. The Christians fought to defend themselves from foreign conquest. Hardly a world historical crime, eh?

But to your question, the number I have heard (and someone please correct if I am wrong) is 20,000 deaths on both sides over a period of six centuries! Now compare that to the numbers you see for the 20th century and let me know what you think!

Regards,

Rooster


Give me back that filet of fish,
Give me that fish.
If it were you up here on the wall ...

[roster]

In my opinion it is sad when this happens to even one individual.

As it turns out, Rooster, our views probably don't diverge much here---if at all.

........ Forcing human will, in the name of a creator and belief system

The above is social tyranny under the guise of religion. I truly believe the key words above are "in the name of" which, IMO, fairly equates to "under the guise of". That sadly recurring situation is never what any benevolent religion was meant to be. Tyrannical leaders have absolutely no qualms about mercilessly exploiting any social structure and belief system to their corrupt and all-too-often sociopathic ends.

When that social situation occurs, the inherently benevolent nature of religion is not reflected, so much as social tyranny devastates religion itself. That's religion very sadly subverted... But it is not at all the true essence of any religion preaching love and human fellowship.

Benevolent religion is a very beautiful thing IMHO.

You give no credit for the American Revolution and the establishment of the U.S. Constitution and the freedom it brought? What about the abolition of slavery in Europe and the Americas which was driven by Christian ideals?

Our Founders were certainly driven by that "benevolent religion". From the Declaration of Indepdence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,... ." It was fully in this spirit that the Constitution was penned.

G'night,

Rooster


Give me back that filet of fish,
Give me that fish.
If it were you up here on the wall ...

[-SWS]

I also gave no credit to modern NASCAR rule changes... since neither had anything to do with my intended point.

Our Founders were certainly driven by that "benevolent religion".

Indeed, when our Nation's Founders decided to separate church from state, their benevolent governing decision was driven by the desire to protect all benevolent religions from persecution. The former persecution they had in mind was that of non-status-quo religions---who were often persecuted by governments having their own official religion to impose, as a somewhat convenient sociopolitical control mechanism. Here we have yet another example of tyrannical leadership, mercilessly exploiting religion to better exert sociopolitical control.

Again those particular dynamics were never "religious" dynamics at work. Rather those were the typically-human dynamics of sociopolitical tyranny at work---this time exploiting religion once again. The same holds true for the Holy Crusades or Spanish Inquisition. Those were also examples of typically-human sociopolitical tyranny at work. Those recurring historical dynamics step far beyond the scope of religion, and sadly they do not spare religion either.

But very clearly, the essence of any loving and benevolent religion has nothing to do with bloodshed or tyranny. Neither bloodshed nor tyranny have anything to do with a loving God, but they have everything to do with sociopolitical weaknesses inherent to mankind. Sociopathic tyranny clearly devastates all individuals and social structures in its path. Let's not confuse roughshod social bloodshed with the loving essence of any benevolent religion. Sadly, truly benevolent religions are victimized in that same way even today.

[DreamStalker]

In my opinion it is sad when this happens to even one individual.

As it turns out, Rooster, our views probably don't diverge much here---if at all.

........ Forcing human will, in the name of a creator and belief system

The above is social tyranny under the guise of religion. I truly believe the key words above are "in the name of" which, IMO, fairly equates to "under the guise of". That sadly recurring situation is never what any benevolent religion was meant to be. Tyrannical leaders have absolutely no qualms about mercilessly exploiting any social structure and belief system to their corrupt and all-too-often sociopathic ends.

When that social situation occurs, the inherently benevolent nature of religion is not reflected, so much as social tyranny devastates religion itself. That's religion very sadly subverted... But it is not at all the true essence of any religion preaching love and human fellowship.

Benevolent religion is a very beautiful thing IMHO.

You give no credit for the American Revolution and the establishment of the U.S. Constitution and the freedom it brought? What about the abolition of slavery in Europe and the Americas which was driven by Christian ideals?

Our Founders were certainly driven by that "benevolent religion". From the Declaration of Indepdence, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,... ." It was fully in this spirit that the Constitution was penned.

G'night,

Rooster


Give me back that filet of fish,
Give me that fish.
If it were you up here on the wall ...

I think you are missing the point Rooster ... that thingy that people profess.

I think ... believe ... whatever ... that SWS was making the point that religion (Christianity, Islam, or whatever) is in itself not the root of "Forcing human will, in the name of a creator and belief system" but rather that religion of any kind has always been and continues to be exploited as a vehicle for forcing human will (ie. the evil side of human nature). Our founders realized that and for that very reason created that "benevolent" document we call our constitution to protect us from that very vehicle (religion, be it Christianity or whatever) from being used to force our will in life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness (and science too ).

[DreamStalker]

What a great post, certainly stirred diverse opinions. Since we use our individual thought processes to interpretate another person's thought processes, we should have a poll to see if any came close to Rooster's original intent. I interpreted the message of possible change in charity deductions, as one of the warning signals that if President Obama continues with the type of changes he is proposing, it will bring massive social change in the USA.

In American History, The topic of social change is repeated from one generation to the next. Using Professor Howard Zinn's theory in his acclaimed book, A Peoples History of the United States-from 1841 to present (Clinton Presidency) He attacks the usual story that the Robber Barons were the heros of the late 1800's. He states the Baron's built their fortunes using masses of largely immigrant labor. Five and one-half million immigrants arrived in the 1880's. Four million came in the 1890's. This created a favorable labor surplus for the Barons that kept wages down. The surplus of workers created strong economic competition between the immigrants and the native born citizens for employment.

Then another cycle began. The immigrants and their children joined the citizens working in the mills, mines & factories. Later they rebelled against the Barons. Began forming unions, and struck for higher wages & safer employment. Thousands of laborers joined Unions. They picketed their employers. The Police were ordered to attack the strikers and stop the strikes. They arrested strikers, but juries would not find them guilty. The strikers won against astonishing odds. They did not win all their demands, but they dared to resist, and did increase their wages.

In the next cycle after World War 11, the middle class reached a level of prosperity previously unknown. They bought refrigerators, cars, homes and sent their children to college. Unions were credited with raising the income level of their members and the general public.

Fast forward to the 1990's. Unions were in disfavor and the Automotive Unions were excoriated for excessive labor demands and ruining our Automotive Industry.

Most of the descendants of the Barons have their fortunes; how will the cycle of big Government affect them? And will changes in government improve or damage the way of life of the average American citizen?
Jan

Nice post Jan. ... and those are indeed the questions, how will this cycle affect the descendants of wealth and the average American citizen? ... no one really knows and only time will tell .... and 2 or 3 months just ain't enough to tell .

[-SWS]

Nice post Jan. ...

I have to ditto that....as it's my favorite post in this thread. Very nice post!

[ainsle14]

there has been a lot of revision history on this thread by people of the right and fundental christian beliefs. I would suggest people to read the real history of the world and make up their own mind. History revision has always been used by people to forward thier own beliefs

[-SWS]

there has been a lot of revision history on this thread by people of the right and fundental christian beliefs. I would suggest people to read the real history of the world and make up their own mind. History revision has always been used by people to forward thier own beliefs

I don't know which "revisions" you're referring to, since this thread is really full of "opinions" across the spectrum.

For the record I am neither right-wing, creationist, nor am I formally "religious".

But there's no doubt in my own mind that the social dynamics on that linked graph below are purely that of utterly poor leadership manifested across the board as tragic sociopolitical tyranny. I honestly see no real religious dynamics at work in the likes of the Holy Crusades or Spanish Inquisition. Rather, I see the same tragic sociopolitical dynamics of extremely poor and tyrannical leadership at work across the board each time:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

All are social blemishes in which people and their social structures---including religion--- have been victimized in a most tragic but recurring manner.

I would suggest people to read the real history of the world and make up their own mind.

Absolutely...

[DreamStalker]

For the record I am neither right-wing, creationist, nor am I formally "religious". ...

I resemble that record

But there's no doubt in my own mind that the social dynamics on that linked graph below are purely that of utterly poor leadership manifested across the board as tragic sociopolitical tyranny. I honestly see no real religious dynamics at work in the likes of the Holy Crusades or Spanish Inquisition. Rather, I see the same tragic sociopolitical dynamics of extremely poor and tyrannical leadership at work across the board each time:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

All are social blemishes in which people and their social structures---including religion--- have been victimized in a most tragic but recurring manner.

I would suggest people to read the real history of the world and make up their own mind.

Absolutely...

Most absolutely!

And the graph is very cool (in an informative way) ... note that the peak blood letting occured just after the last Great Depression ... perhaps a sign of what happens when wealth is disproportionately distributed (hoarded) among a relative few?

[Liam1965]

I honestly see no real religious dynamics at work in the likes of the Holy Crusades or Spanish Inquisition. Rather, I see the same tragic sociopolitical dynamics of extremely poor and tyrannical leadership at work across the board each time:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

I agree, but the problem is that organized religion was the catalyst for both. Just like Islam is not, in my opinion, to blame for or indicted by the 9/11 attacks, but it was definitely the catalyst for them.

This is what I try to get across to people, there's a difference between religion and the acts perpetrated by the adherents of one against the adherents of another. The misbehaved members of one group do not necessarily tarnish the group as a whole, although it's fairly easy to dismiss "those Muslim terrorists" as though the two words were synonymous, rather than an adjective describing which specific terrorists we're discussing.

Liam, tired of proponents of various religions angry at me for not following THEIR teachings, but willing to forgive themselves the same lapses, because at least as an adherent to "the truth", they KNOW better.

[roster]

there has been a lot of revision history on this thread by people of the right and fundental christian beliefs. I would suggest people to read the real history of the world and make up their own mind. History revision has always been used by people to forward thier own beliefs

Instead of discussing history or the facts, just put labels on people and the matter is settled?

I like efficiency and that is certainly efficient.

But I also expect effectiveness. Do "labels" pass this test?

[-SWS]

I agree, but the problem is that organized religion was the catalyst for both.

I tend to view organized religion not so much as a catalyst, but as a conveniently exploited social mechanism of sociopathic or tyrannical leadership. Once social tyranny sets in, then a truly benevolent religion ceases to function as the organized vehicle of sacred and loving worship that was originally intended. Rather, at that point social devastation and war sadly occur under the malicious guise of religion itself.

Just like Islam is not, in my opinion, to blame for or indicted by the 9/11 attacks, but it was definitely the catalyst for them.

Absolutely. The misnomer "Holy War" may very well be mankind's biggest and most tragic oxymoron. That certainly includes the Christian Holy Crusades as but one example in my opinion. So-called "Holy Wars" brutalize people en masse. They have absolutely nothing to do with worshiping and serving a truly benevolent God or Allah. They have everything to do with sociopolitical tyranny, death, and destruction.

There is deep beauty in all benevolent religions in my honest opinion. And that includes that most beautiful and holy Muslim religion when it is not politically subverted for purposes of destruction. That same statement stands true for the inherently sacred and loving Christianity. The same statement stands true for all religions featuring large-scale assembly that are therefore sociopolitically vulnerable to exploitation by less-than-benevolent leadership. Again, that's when religion veers wildly and dangerously off its intended course, and ceases to be a socially benevolent and loving vehicle of worship.

[roster]

......
Liam, tired of proponents of various religions angry at me for not following THEIR teachings.........

At what time of day/week/year does this happen? I am in the Bible belt and just tried to remember when I was last approached like that. The only example I came up with was at least 30 years ago.

Maybe they learned to cross to the other side of the street when they see me coming.

Or maybe it is damage from all the years of untreated sleep apnea. Just can't remember them?

I don't count the Mormons or Seventh Day Adventists who come to the door. They never seem angry.

[Liam1965]

I agree, but the problem is that organized religion was the catalyst for both.

I tend to view organized religion not so much as a catalyst, but as a conveniently exploited social mechanism of sociopathic or tyrannical leadership.

You say "to MAY to" I say "to MAH to"...

But I agree, "catalyst" may not have been exactly the right word. You get what I mean, though. It was used as the justification, and by using that, it got a batch of people to support something they might otherwise not have supported.

Liam, who has never, except in that song lyric, said "to MAH to".

[DreamStalker]

......
Liam, tired of proponents of various religions angry at me for not following THEIR teachings.........

At what time of day/week/year does this happen? I am in the Bible belt and just tried to remember when I was last approached like that. The only example I came up with was at least 30 years ago.

Well definitely more than 30 years ago ... but this guy maybe could have used an anger management class ...

Thus Joshua struck all the land, the hill country and the Negev and the lowland and the slopes and all their kings. He left no survivor, but he utterly destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded. (Joshua 10:40)