.

[blowfish]

.

[jules]

so these would all be fine leak graphs?










Because I really think those are all BAD and this one is pretty good

[ozij]

Suppose you''re trying to inflate a tyre.
Suppose you have a hole in the hose leading from the sophisticated compressor to the tyre. When the air pours out of the hole, the compressor ramps up its pressure, and eventually, the tyre walls are firm enoungh, at the cost of the copmressor working harder.

Now, asssume the tyre has a valve and you need to keep the valve open at a certain pressure before you can blow air into the tyre. But you can't get the valve to open, because there's a hole in tyre just before the valve, and all the air meant to keep the valve open simply blow out ppffffffffffffffffffffff of the hole. The compressor is handling the leak, but the tyre remains deflated because there's not enough pressure to keep the valve open.

That's your problem with mouth leaks: not enough pressure to keep the valve from collapsing, because no matter how much aditional pressure is added by the compressor, it goes out of you mouth instead of stenting your airway.

No machine and no engineer can give you proper therapy if the pressurized air blowing into your bedroom.

Mask leaks can be handled by some machines. Mouthleaks can not.

O.

[gordon]

I looked at your leak rate with interest as it is well below mine which is an average of 44 LPM.

I seem to be sleeping alright and certainly feel better than before I started using the equipment about 6 weeks ago.

[ozij]

The safe leak rate for a mask depends on the mask type, and the pressure.

44 is perfect for a Swift at 16 cm h2o, and far too much for a Breeze at the same pressure.

http://www.internetage.com/cpapinfo/leak-rates-1.html

O.

[DreamStalker]

I wonder if we aren't overthinking this whole idea of leaks? I mean the machines are made so they adjust for leaks. For instance as long as you are under the large leak level than does it really matter or are we so tuned in to the software and perfection that we worry too much about the leak graph. All the people I see with straight or near straight lines are under or around 10 for pressure. It is a lot harder to get a good line around 15.

So if you are not showing large leaks haven't the engineers that made the machine already considered leaks and made the machines compensate for them?

The chin strap was made to prevent LARGE leaks and not to seal your mouth. Every Dr. and Tech. I have talked to as well as what I have read from the manufacturers says that some leaking is expected and compensated for.

I don't know but I don't think I am going to sweat the details when it comes to the leak line anymore as long as I don't have large leaks. The mask is bad enough to have to wear and then the stupid chin strap but having to spend time with all the other leak fixes is more than the average user needs to worry about. Check for large leaks and if there isn't any don't worry about it.

Yes that is correct ... so long as you are using CPAP mode. If you are using a machine in APAP mode (and I would assume BiPAP as well), the machines has a sensor that relies on there being minimal leaks in the air pressure circuit.

So in CPAP mode, leaks within reason are compensated for. In APAP mode, the APAP algorithm is compromised unless leaks are kept to absolute minimum.

[screamineagle]

Mike

Thanks for your post. I, also have the same questions , but did not really know how to ask them. I've only been hosed since 30 July. I'm beginning to feel much better for the second time since then. The first time I felt better I realized that my leaks were unacceptable and almost became obsessive in the search to GET THAT LEAK LINE DOWN! I was spending way too much time trying to figure out how to do that. My AHI's went up (not significantly but up) and I started feeling worse, almost to the pretreatment stage.

Then, it hit me. If I could just get rid of the large leaks (which I did) and do my best to straighten up the leak line (which I did not) while still maintaining a life I should be happy. I am sure this was a simple case of rationalization.

I am happy! I no longer obsess. I feel much better, my AHI's are back down and I'm no longer stressed over leaks (unless they are large ones).

By the way, how does one achieve the flat leak line shown in the last example and still be alive?

Dale

[carbonman]

By the way, how does one achieve the flat leak line shown in the last example and still be alive? Dale

FFM


Very much alive!

[Craig-Tx]

By the way, how does one achieve the flat leak line shown in the last example and still be alive?

I believe it's a technique involving super-gluing the mask to the nose, using aircraft epoxy to seal the lips (cover with medical tape and painters tape to be sure) and finally some form of mid-evil straps to hold you to the bed in one position.

In honesty, I don't worry a LOT about the small leaks... but I do concern myself with mouth breathing (often shown as a small leak). If the air is blowing out my mouth, there may be pressure at the mask, but I know there isn't any pressure at the back of my throat. The nostrils are only designed for so much airflow - this is why it isn't a "Large Leak".

Another reason to combat the mouth breathing is that it's not good on the mouth! Ask your dentist if it's good for a LOT of air to constantly blow through your mouth. It will lead to gum disease and other dental problems.

just my $.02

-craig

[screamineagle]

Carbonman

Thanks for your input. Maybe you can answer a couple of questions that have been stumping me from the get go.

1. How does one get a leak line showing average leak 8-10 lpm below the printed flow charts in the manual for the mask you show in your profile? I am assuming that the charts in the manual are showing allowable numbers to flush co2 from the prior breath. I'm probably wrong in my assumption so please enlighten me.

2. What do the lines that are offshoots of and run perpendicular to the horizontal leak line represent?

I admire the leak line shown in your report, don't get me wrong. I really don't know the answers to the above questions. If I understood more then maybe I would take it more seriously. Again, don't take that wrong. I feel great, am 100% compliant since day one and my AHI's are half of high normal.

Dale

[carbonman]

1. How does one get a leak line showing average leak 8-10 lpm below the printed flow charts in the manual for the mask you show in your profile?

Dale, I'm pretty much a nooob, too, so I'm just reading and trying stuff.
3 days ago, I took my mask, UMmed, apart trying to find a "leak sound".
The joints where the elbow connects to the mask frame and the detachable
swivel connects to the elbow, seemed loose. From reading about the
leak problem that the Quattro mask had and the teflon tape fix, I thought
what the heck..... I teflon taped both of those joints.
The leak rate went from 39-41 to 31-33.
It didn't fix the "leak sound" but it improved the mask leak. Bonus.

2. What do the lines that are offshoots of and run perpendicular to the horizontal leak line represent?
Dale

What I know about the little downward tick marks is this:
they are good, they represent when the sampling algorithm can't find
a difference, or something like that. I can't remember who,
maybe feeling_better, posted an indepth analysis of leak rates in
masks and how they are calculated.
Someone correct me if this is not right.

Like I said, I'm a noob, too.

.....and don't hate me because I have a flat leak line.

I try to follow this rule of thumb when it comes to many things in my life:

Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something.
-- Thomas A. Edison

[screamineagle]

Carbonman

I absolutely do not hate you. I am, however, a trifle jealous of your leak line. You should be proud of it.

The reason I replied to this post in the first place was that I wanted information. I have tried to do everything (within reason to me anyway) possible to obtain perfect results. But I believe that each of us has a point where the results are "good enough". Now, what good enough is, is what I really want to know. Is normal good enough? Everything that I've read has said that an AHI of 0-5 is in the normal range.

Initially, I had a problem with mouth breathing. I was using a Mirage Swift II for two reasons. The first was because I wanted to keep my full beard. The second was that I wear dentures, but didn't want to start wearing them at night. When I don't wear them at night I get large leaks from a full face mask which I tried to use to overcome the mouth breathing. Leaks were attrocious. My UMFF whistled, My Quattro was uncomfortable, My ComfortFull II was the best but I could not stop the leaks with any of them. I have since purchased chin straps, pap caps and have added PurSleep therapy to my reportoire. I have also tried (unsuccessfully) using PoliGrip strips. For the last week I have gone back to the Swift II and have gotten much better results. By the way, I pulled off the chin strap halfway through last night and from my leak line, determined that I did no mouth breathing without it. Maybe I have trained my tongue (maybe not). I'm not going to risk it, I'll be using the chin strap again tonight. Someday soon I'll try to go without it.

Anyway, I did not shave off my beard and I haven't allowed my therapy to dictate my alcohol intake and I still manage to get to every Biker Appreciation Night in South Florida. I feel better than I have in probably 20 years, I exercise daily and , for the most part, practice good sleep hygeine. But,is that GOOD ENOUGH? I don't know but I feel that it is.

Is it?

Dale

[BeanMeScot]

I have a friend who is starting out on CPAP. He has very high pressure. In his study, they couldn't go above 16 because of the machine but his AHI was still atrocious (84). He has a friend who is a DME and he is letting him use an A Flex for a few nights while he tries to get his insurance straightened out. His leak rate on the mask was rated at 40 for 20cm pressure. He had 18.75cm of pressure at 90% and a leak rate of 47.7. His AHI was 2.8. Complicating this is that the machine had been used by someone else for 3 sessions and not cleared so this isn't all his data but he doesn't have a card reader to get daily information.

How does the leak rate and the AHI work together? Does the higher than allowed leak rate mean that his AHI is artificially low? Or should it have made the AHI higher?

[Wulfman]

so these would all be fine leak graphs?










Because I really think those are all BAD and this one is pretty good

Actually, I'd take what's behind "Door #2" ......with the fixed pressure of 10 cm.
The leak line may not be the best but that's a pretty good AHI.
The AHI that goes with the last one....."Door #4"......with that straight leak line isn't very good.

Den