OSA due to tongue rolling back?

[StillAnotherGuest]

Snoredog, that tongue-wire procedure thing has been around for awhile. Early studies showed the success rate to hover around 50% (about where the up3 surgery is. These numbers are only ballpark as best I can recall). I'm sure you can google the cases I read, if this is an area of interest for you.

Don't think so, only one taking place is currently under way in Chicago area, there may be a parallel study taking place in Europe, info on both can be found below:

http://www.aspiremedical.com/pr/pr_052207.html

http://www.aspiremedical.com/tech_us.html

This is the tongue tether, it uses like a fish hook implanted in your tongue and the other end of the tether is attached to the chin, they can adjust the length of that tether to prevent the tongue from falling into the back of the throat and blocking off the airway (shoots split_city's theory all to hell doesn't it ).

As far as I know, this procedure is brand new, I applied to be one of the first test dummies for it and during the interview I found out i'd have to travel to chicago about every 2 weeks to participate in it, so I passed.

Right, tongue suspension technique has been around for years. Aspire Medical is just trying a new twist.

As a matter of fact, InfluENT Medical, manufacturer of the Repose System, REALLY doesn't think it's anything new.
SAG

[Snoredog]

Snoredog, that tongue-wire procedure thing has been around for awhile. Early studies showed the success rate to hover around 50% (about where the up3 surgery is. These numbers are only ballpark as best I can recall). I'm sure you can google the cases I read, if this is an area of interest for you.

Don't think so, only one taking place is currently under way in Chicago area, there may be a parallel study taking place in Europe, info on both can be found below:

http://www.aspiremedical.com/pr/pr_052207.html

http://www.aspiremedical.com/tech_us.html

This is the tongue tether, it uses like a fish hook implanted in your tongue and the other end of the tether is attached to the chin, they can adjust the length of that tether to prevent the tongue from falling into the back of the throat and blocking off the airway (shoots split_city's theory all to hell doesn't it ).

As far as I know, this procedure is brand new, I applied to be one of the first test dummies for it and during the interview I found out i'd have to travel to chicago about every 2 weeks to participate in it, so I passed.

Right, tongue suspension technique has been around for years. Aspire Medical is just trying a new twist.

As a matter of fact, InfluENT Medical, manufacturer of the Repose System, REALLY doesn't think it's anything new.
SAG

[Guest]

Can we summaries sleep apnea due to 1) deviate septum 2) turbines enlargement 3) large tonsil 4) large soft palete 5) large tongue 6) narrow air passage 6) central apnea-barin all down to one common issue here "The air way blaokage"?

[split_city]

Can we summaries sleep apnea due to 1) deviate septum 2) turbines enlargement 3) large tonsil 4) large soft palete 5) large tongue 6) narrow air passage 6) central apnea-barin all down to one common issue here "The air way blaokage"?

Yes, but it's important to know what factors initiated the airway to collapse. I admit that the tongue does play a pivitol role in the pathogenesis of OSA. However, other key factors are likely to be involved. I have mentioned before that changes in lung volume significantly impact airway collapsibility. Furthermore, several studies have removed the tongue (not literally) as a confounding factor as the studies were conducted under anesthesia and thus, under hypotonic airway conditions.

Simply stretching a hypotonic airway also impacts upon airway collapsibility.

Consequently, you may still suffer from apneas even if the tongue is tightened if 1) lung volume decreases or 2) the stretch on the airway is reduced.

[mckooi]

Hi All and Slpit_City,

I had 1, 2, 3 done.....the rest too invasive.....also now practice the following ...for more detail see below.

viewtopic/t25118/Must-WatchSleep-Suffer ... ively.html

Mckooi

[StillAnotherGuest]

The Aspire Medical Advance System is basically an adjustable version of the InfluENT Repose System (and for that matter, darn similar to another pending product).

However, when I said

As a matter of fact, InfluENT Medical, manufacturer of the Repose System, REALLY doesn't think it's anything new.

I mean like

Hey! You Stole My Idea!

SAG

[split_city]

Hi All and Slpit_City,

I had 1, 2, 3 done.....the rest too invasive.....also now practice the following ...for more detail see below.

viewtopic/t25118/Must-WatchSleep-Suffer ... ively.html

Mckooi

Taken from one of your links.

http://www.buteykoairways.com/apnea.htm

The Buteyko Institute Method corrects the breathing pattern by reducing the hyperventilation, with a resulting decrease in both the duration and frequency of apnoeas, a decrease in snoring and the return to normal sleep patterns. Hyperventilation decreases the arterial and alveolar levels of carbon dioxide (CO2) to the point where the breathing reflex is depressed. This is interpreted as an apnoea or hypopnoea to an observer. A hypopnea is defined as when breathing is reduced by 50% or more. During cessation of breathing (apnoea) the CO2 slowly accumulates until it triggers the body to take the next breath. By correcting the breathing pattern the body no longer needs to suppress the breathing reflex as the CO2 level is maintained within normal limits.

I have discussed this before and how an arousal may perpetuate sleep apnea events.


viewtopic.php?p=215498&highlight=co2#215498

A seperate area of research looks at the importance of an arousal to restore airflow or terminate an apnea. Recent work suggests that arousal actually might perpetuate sleep apnea events. Here's what can happen:

1) Apnea
2) CO2 in blood builds up
3) Arousal is triggered
4) High levels of CO2 in blood trigger increased ventilation
5) Increased ventilation reduces CO2 levels in the blood
6) The individual may blow off enough CO2 that they stop breathing i.e. central apnea when returning to sleep
7) As CO2 levels are low, upper airway muscles are turned off
Eventually, CO2 levels increase and breathing is switched back on. However, muscles are still switched off and cannot keep the airway open.
9) Airway collapses and an obstructive event occurs
10) CO2 builds up
11) Arousal is triggered followed by hyperventilation
12) Cycle continues

[Snoredog]

The Aspire Medical Advance System is basically an adjustable version of the InfluENT Repose System (and for that matter, darn similar to another pending product).

However, when I said

As a matter of fact, InfluENT Medical, manufacturer of the Repose System, REALLY doesn't think it's anything new.

I mean like

Hey! You Stole My Idea!

SAG

I would agree with that, and it is surprising, seems InfluENT isn't very business savvy if they didn't take the necessary steps to patent the technique in order to protect it.

They seem to suggest the procedure doesn't stand on it's own, by suggesting it be combined with UPPP and/or Pillar. That suggests it doesn't work as well as reported.

[Guest]

I agree snoredog, it doesn't seem to be very effrective. Even when combined with the UP3 (UPPP) procedure, they "brag" about a AHI reduction to 15 ?!? Even if it is a 78% reduction, an AHI of 15?!? . I think the CPAP is waaaaaaaaaaay easier.

[snork1]

Nah! Too late. I already spent a bunch of coin on my PAP equipment.

Besides ... I don't shop Costco or Wally Wolrd cuz all that stuff is made in China --- all those leaded products eat the brains of their consumers so that science can easily catch up to them.

Oh yah, and of course they are the ONLY stores that sell stuff made in china.
Try checking a few labels from whatever dreamworld store you are buying at instead. Its ALL made in China, or worse these days, sad to say.
There are other reasons not to shop at WallyWorld...

Anyway, my apnea events and snoring is WORSE on my back, according to an impartial observer, my wife.
So I have developed a habit of avoiding sleeping on my back, which makes it about impossible to fall asleep at my sleep studies since they insist I MUST sleep on my back.

MY OSA seems to be the result of a receding jaw, combined with a setback tongue and a TINY throat passage.
The engineer in me looked at that and figured getting the tongue forward should help. I can't sleep on my stomach without throwing out my back, so I can't speak for that. I did get a dental device fitted and have been using that quite successfully for well over a year with no CPAP, and good O2 sat numbers and lots of dreams. VERY rarely, especially if my nose is plugged up, I will get some light snoring when sleeping deeply on my back with the dental device, which is taken care of by my wife poking me and then I roll to one side or the other, and life pleasantly continues.

YMMV

[rested gal]

Snork, I'm glad the TAP continues to do such a good job for you.

Soooo happy to see you keep posting here from time to time!

[ozij]

Snork, I'm glad the TAP continues to do such a good job for you.

Soooo happy to see you keep posting here from time to time!

Ditto... if it weren't for the time zone differnce I would probably have said that first....

Glad to see you, Snork.

O.

[StillAnotherGuest]

Hi All and Slpit_City,

I had 1, 2, 3 done.....the rest too invasive.....also now practice the following ...for more detail see below.

viewtopic/t25118/Must-WatchSleep-Suffer ... ively.html

Mckooi

The paper by Mary Birch re: Buteyko Breathing has no scientific basis whatsover. A single case? All the objective data missing? I'd like to see what the simple discontinuance of the nocturnal dose of Serevent had on the PSG results.

I thought it was interesting how she went through this big rigamaroll on explaining Bohr Effect

Hyperventilation When a person hyperventilates, they exhale excessive amounts of carbon dioxide (CO2). Lowered CO2 levels in the body are critical in many conditions. The optimal level of CO2 in the air sacs is around 6.5%. If the CO2 level falls below this due to hyperventilation, there is a gradual alkaline reaction in the lungs. When alveolar CO2 is lowered, this gradual alkaline reaction in the lungs is carried through to the blood and total blood CO2 will also decrease. Oxygen (O2) in the blood is carried by means of a haemoglobin (Hb) molecule. When CO2 is low due to over-breathing, O2 is bound tighter than normal to the Hb molecule due to a chemical bond. For this bond to loosen, CO2 levels need to increase and the blood pH needs to become less alkaline. As blood pH decreases, the Hb/O2 bond decreases in strength, hence more O2 is available to the tissues. Therefore, when CO2 levels rise to normal, O2 is more readily released from haemoglobin and it can then oxygenate the body and maintain homeostasis. This phenomenon, called the Bohr effect, the Verigo-Bohr effect, or oxygenhaemoglobin disassociation curve, is described in standard physiology textbooks.

to try to add credibility to this nonsense but conveniently didn't relate this to sleep apnea.

Well, hey Mary, here's your Bohr Effect, with what typically happens to pCO2 during apneic episodes (changes in pCO2 during CompSAS, which would be the epitome of this response, if it, in fact, existed at all), a change from 40 to 37 mmHg. The green line is normal, the yellow line is the hyperventilation (right, they're basically superimposed). Here's your laser cursor, Mary, wanna explain to me how that works?



SAG