With GERD, is BiPAP superior to APAP reducing aerophagia?

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
-SWS
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Post by -SWS » Fri May 04, 2007 10:29 pm

NightHawkeye wrote: My understanding is that EPR simply reduces pressure on exhale while leaving the inhalation pressure or IPAP unchanged.

EPR is simply a BiPAP function, is it not?
Bill, unlike traditional BiLevel, Resmed's EPR algorithmically attempts to "handle events". Specifically, Resmed's EPR tries to suspend lowering pressure during EPAP phase for obstructive apneas.

Quite a few patients can get away with traditional BiLevel EPAP being less than CPAP. But quite a few cannot. That last epidemiological reality is why a BiLevel PSG is so often considered "medically prudent" when switching from CPAP to traditional BiLevel.

C-Flex supposedly gets around that epidemiological caveat by returning to IPAP-equivalent pressures before expiration is complete. Resmed EPR supposedly gets around that same epidemiological caveat by suspending EPR during moments of obstructive apnea (hence what they call "event handling").

Bill, while I have your ear would you mind sharing perceptions? I have always suffered from silent GERD (no perception of my GERD symptoms). I also don't perceive much difference among those various C-Flex settings---aside from increased aerophagia when I have C-Flex turned on. Curious---how does that compare with what you're experiencing?


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Post by -SWS » Fri May 04, 2007 11:19 pm

blarg wrote:
-SWS wrote:Same atmospheric pressure, same 14 cm of positive air pressure, same lung volume, same relative moment in the respiratory cycle. Yet at least some patients report feeling noticeably less expiratory effort at 17/14 cm BiLevel compared to 14 cm CPAP. In physics alone that's counterintuitive. But in biophysics (and perhaps even the psychology of perception)yet additional physiologic factors cloud the comfort equation.
Ok, so 14 is 14 is 14 is what you're saying. That's true, but I think there's a noticeable ventilator effect on BiPAP.
Blarg, that pressure-transitional ventilatory effect is supposedly more pronounced on central patients. There are also supposedly pressure-transitional IPAP/EPAP ventilatory benefits for obesity-related hypoventilation. In these cases the higher IPAP pressures amount to less inspiratory effort because of that IPAP pressure-wave's leading or transitional edge. However, that's reduced inspiratory effort, which is not to be confused with either expiratory pressure relief (a different phase, different time domain point, and different BiLevel benefit) or the proper central regulation of tidal volume that otherwise healthy OSA patients achieve despite BiLevel.

More explanation of that previous sentence. A purely obstructive patient who is "centrally healthy" (and properly "machine acclimated") will properly control his/her tidal volumes based on various chemoreceptor input. That centrally healthy (but obstructive) patient will centrally "run the show" so to speak regarding how much lung inflation actually occurs. Their central physiology thus correctly regulates inflation/volume and then correctly transitions to the expiratory phase---despite that easier inspiratory effort presented by those BiLevel pressure transitions. No significant "extra" (as you termed it) lung inflation occurs in the normal and healthy case of pure OSA.

Over-inflation is a possibility, but that's when things go wrong.


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blarg
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Post by blarg » Fri May 04, 2007 11:40 pm

-SWS wrote:Over-inflation is a possibility, but that's when things go wrong.
I know on CPAP at 15, the pressure causes me to not exhale fully. That's why it feels weird for a few minutes, and then I adapt. There's a baseline of air that sits there that isn't there at ambient pressure. This is the "inflation" I'm talking about...

It makes sense to me that a higher pressure for IPAP would move up this baseline just for the inhale, because I've seen this baseline increase as I've gone from 8 to 15. Even if it's not much, it's this higher baseline transitioning to a lower baseline that I really think does create the extra comfort feeling. I'm stubborn as all heck to let go of this notion because of the increasing baseline I've experienced as I've gone up pressures. Sure, tidal volume is the same, but some of the tide is going to get swept out on account of the lower pressure, or I'm just going insane.

Which I'm fully willing to accept as a hypothesis, by the way.

I'm a programmer Jim, not a doctor!

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dsm
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Post by dsm » Fri May 04, 2007 11:47 pm

Snoredog wrote:
NightHawkeye wrote:
Snoredog wrote:Once you are able to read your reports you will see EPAP clears OA, IPAP clears HI etc., so going to a bipap does nothing if you still need the same pressure to clear an apnea event.
Aww, come on Snoredog. That's pretty lame. You've said nothing.

In about 10 seconds of searching the internet I found a study which indicates that my experience holds true for 89% of xPAP patients:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract
It is often difficult to achieve adequate acceptance of nasal continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP) therapy by patients with OSA. Many patients find it particularly inconvenient to expire against the treatment pressure. With this in mind, we have attempted to improve acceptance of CPAP therapy by using a bilevel system that reduces the treatment pressure during expiration. 52 patients were randomized either to initial treatment with CPAP therapy followed by bilevel treatment, or to treatment in reversed order. During bilevel therapy the ratio of inspiratory to expiratory pressure was fixed at 1:0.6. After each treatment the patients were interviewed on the basis of visual analogue scales to establish their subjective evaluation of such parameters as general well-being, quality of sleep, comparison of the respective treatment pressures, and possible preference for one of the two systems for long-term treatment. The minimal effective inspiratory treatment pressure during bilevel therapy (IPAP) and the minimal effective CPAP pressure were closely correlated (r = 0.89).
The last sentence says that for 89% of the patients in this randomized study the IPAP and CPAP pressures were essentially the same. In contrast, EPAP pressures were 40% lower (note the earlier highlighted sentence).

Your turn . . .

Regards,
Bill
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dsm
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Post by dsm » Fri May 04, 2007 11:58 pm

Re aerophagia & Bilevels. I can really only pass on my experience on this and am quite willing to acknowledge that many sleep specialists have differing views (ChristineQuilts has some very good points re all this).

For me, a Bilevel finally cut my aerophagia back to nothing. But, I do run a very small gap between Ipap & Epap (3 cms) That is because my last titration was 12CMS so I run my Bilevel ay 10 epap & 13 ipap. This has been a winning set up for me - I love it.

Last week I had the opportunity to speak to a Dr who is a sleep specialist for Resmed (he was exchanging 2 S8 cpaps for me). I got to discussing using a Bilevel even though I was not prescribed one. He was very interested in what I told him & then explained that Bilevels were usually recommended to people who had COPD or other complications. He said that Timed Bilevels were usually associated with Cheynes-Stokes breathing or serious COPD cases or people with Central Apnea. He also said that with a Timed Bilevel it was normal to set a gap of 8 CMS ! - I told him that in my own experiments if I used a gap of over 4 CMS my AHI went hvery high. In one instance the AHI I recorded was higher than my original sleep study AHI.

I asked him how people could handle such a gap & he said that in such cases is was the best approach. He said that many such people needed a gap of 8 CMS to clear the CO2 to the right level. He said that this was always an issue in setting someone up on a Bilevel.

So as CQ says, it may pay to get advice or move cautiously.

Also remember that with the Bipap AUTO, when in Auto mode, you have no control over the minimum Ipap Epap gap. The machines starts at 2 CMS & then ranges as it sees fit.

DSM

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rested gal
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Post by rested gal » Sat May 05, 2007 12:15 am

I don't know what the physiology of it is, but any time I use a straight cpap machine (no C-flex, no EPR) set for 8, that "8" feels like a LOT more pressure to breathe out against, compared to EPAP 8 on my BiPAP Auto (set for 20/8, so it's starting out using IPAP 10 / EPAP 8 until more -- of either -- is needed. )

True, the straight 8 with a plain CPAP machine eventually doesn't feel like as much work after breathing it for several minutes as it did at first. But that 8 feels literally like breathing out into an empty hose for me when using any Bi-level machine -- within two breaths, not several minutes.

I never thought about the physics of it. I just assumed it was the sensation of a relative difference between any higher IPAP (even if only a couple of cm's) and the lower EPAP. Kinda' like how a cold object would feel colder to my hand if my hand were warm when I touched it, as opposed to if I'd just walked in from throwing snowballs with bare hands and then touched the same cold object.
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Post by -SWS » Sat May 05, 2007 12:57 am

blarg wrote: I know on CPAP at 15, the pressure causes me to not exhale fully. That's why it feels weird for a few minutes, and then I adapt. There's a baseline of air that sits there that isn't there at ambient pressure. This is the "inflation" I'm talking about...
Right. That CPAP at 15 cm is static pressure. That static pressure goes toward airway inflation to free airway obstructions.

However, that static pressure makes exhalation more difficult---simply because there is now less pressure differential with respect to atmospheric pressure. And yet, amazingly your otherwise healthy physiology acclimates and compensates to the point that you may not notice that 15 cm as much (if at all). That's because your own "adaptable" neurological functions and pulmonary functions adjust. They not only adjust your muscular efforts to compensate with more diaphragmatic effort upon exhalation, but they also adjust to that altered pressure-based sensory input. That's all assuming you have "adequately adaptable" and otherwise healthy physiology.

But that was all about static or inflationary pressure at 15 cm. There was no ventilatory assistance there by the way of machine-sourced pressure transitions. You simply inflated your airway to clear obstructions with static pressure. Now let's throw BiLevel at 18/15 into the equation. What's your static pressure there? It's still 15 cm. There you have an alternating 3 cm pressure wave form superimposed on 15 cm of static pressure. In this case you receive a 3 cm measure of pressure-based ventilatory assistance by virtue of that 18/15 pressure-wave oscillation. Here pressure support (or PS=3) accounts for that added measure of ventilatory assistance during inspiration---but it does not facilitate expiration any more than your CPAP=15 (recall that both are instantaneously the same with respect to atmospheric pressure during expiration).

Now let's put both that 15 cm static pressure and that wave-transitional PS=3 together into a simple balloon analogy or model. Think of blowing an elongated balloon half way up. Now hold that pressure. There's your 15 cm of static pressure. The elongated balloon is now partially inflated, so that narrow airway occlusions are now free. But for the purposes of our model, hold that balloon pressure at exactly 15 cm. If you do, there's no air moving in or out, toward achieving an equalization of pressure. If you change that static pressure of 15 cm one iota, then you're going to get some airflow because of pressure equalization.

Continuing the above model, now repeatedly inflate that balloon to 18 cm, then drop back down to 15 cm. Repeat again and again. You get some airflow because of the 18/15 cm transition. That 15 cm is still static or inflationary pressure maintained at all times. That 3 cm fluctuation is what causes the airflow. That is what a PS=3 or ventilatory "pressure support" of 3 cm is all about. But it's an inspiratory effort benefit. It's not at all an exhalation-related pressure benefit for you compared to your CPAP=15 (in biology and biophysics it might be, but not in ordinary physics). That 3 cm alternating pressure wave rides on top of your 15 cm static pressure. Only in this case you were the CPAP machine and the balloon was the patient's airway. But even in the case of central dysregulation the BiLevel patient does the vast majority of the ventilatory work in that match up of human meets machine.

Those are only the most basic inanimate physics involved in xPAP inflation and ventilatory pressure support, Blarg. And it's really no more hypothesis than gravity causing an apple to fall downward from a tree is hypothesis. But that's all physics and not necessarily biophysics. Regardless, as I pointed out earlier, there's no significant "extra" lung inflation when a centrally "well-regulated" and "fully adaptable" OSA patient uses BiLevel. If that "extra" lung inflation happens, as it sometimes does, it's considered both unintentional and undesirable. I should probably again point out that Bilevel considerations for central and various non-OSA related pulmonary conditions are a different set of considerations than BiLevel for purely obstructive apnea. And just for good measure I'll reemphasize that human physiology is where machine meets an entire variety of aditional challenges. I'm absolutely no expert in those areas.

I'm all out of explanations, Blarg. So please don't get me to defending that apples fall to earth, as if that were some kind of "hypothesis". .

Last edited by -SWS on Sat May 05, 2007 1:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Snoredog » Sat May 05, 2007 1:13 am

dsm wrote:
Snores,

Please just calm down. Deal with Bill's points and not go at him as a person.

DSM
in case you had missed it (understandable considering your most recent Resmed binge and relapse), that this thread is about a month old and I did address his points.

but advice from a bona fide wacko I don't really need.

someday science will catch up to what I'm saying...

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Post by -SWS » Sat May 05, 2007 1:34 am

rested gal wrote: I just assumed it was the sensation of a relative difference between any higher IPAP (even if only a couple of cm's) and the lower EPAP.
You're not the only one, Rested Gal. Seems that quite a few people report just that sensation. The effect may be illusory yet beneficial. Or perhaps the effect is related to pressure-based entrainment of the stretch receptors. Or perhaps the incremental blood-gas transitions provided by that ventilatory assistance yielded by PS (PS=3 cm or more seems to be the magic number considered by others here and even manufacturers).

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Post by dsm » Sat May 05, 2007 1:49 am

Snoredog wrote:
dsm wrote:
Snores,

Please just calm down. Deal with Bill's points and not go at him as a person.

DSM
in case you had missed it (understandable considering your most recent Resmed binge and relapse), that this thread is about a month old and I did address his points.

but advice from a bona fide wacko I don't really need.
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An update on this post from the initiator.

Post by PeaceSleeper » Sat May 05, 2007 8:17 am

Hi All!

Wow, what fun this post started rolling! I have certainly learned even more about respiratory physiology than I planned on.

I am now over a week on my nifty auto BiPAP M series and have given up on the auto titrating function because it definitely wants to push my EPAP up until I start experiencing centrals, no matter what the settings or PSMax.

When I set the unit to IPAP 10.5 cm and EPAP 4.5 cm, my AHI goes consistently below 3 with almost no OAs. In fact, I think the OAs it is reading are just me swallowing or clearing my throat---though I guess those are supposed to be VS events.

Now remember, I was titrated at a reputable sleep lab on bilevel and 10/5 but was not fortunate enough to have the support and help of the kind folks on this forum. I had a super leaky mask and a humidifier that put out way too much H2O to make my asthma do anything but become more reactive. That was 5 years ago and I have been suffering high blood pressure and daily severe headaches since then.

With the help of lots of coaching and knowledge from the forum, I have been able to get my leaks under control, move to a machine that I am quite comfortable using for 6 or 7 hours, and have basically almost no events on a good night.

I just wanted to say---please keep up the discussion, my hope is that people will focus on the issues, and know that you are having a positive impact. Bravo!

Peace


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Aerophagia.

Post by PeaceSleeper » Sat May 05, 2007 8:19 am

And almost no aerophagia now with BiPAP.

Wahooooo!




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rested gal
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Post by rested gal » Sat May 05, 2007 8:45 am

What good news, Peacesleeper!

Sounds like the sleep lab nailed the IPAP/EPAP you need, and the message board helped you with the issues that can make or break comfortable treatment.

WTG for sticking with it and working out "making it work" for you!
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blarg
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Post by blarg » Sat May 05, 2007 9:01 am

-SWS wrote:I'm all out of explanations, Blarg. So please don't get me to defending that apples fall to earth, as if that were some kind of "hypothesis".
Have you seen gravity?

Just giving you a hard time. lol.

Thanks for the explanation.
I'm a programmer Jim, not a doctor!

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PeaceSleeper
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Auto BiPAPs

Post by PeaceSleeper » Sat May 05, 2007 9:30 am

RestedGal,

In particular, thanks for your help. I am moving in a direction now that I am getting predictable results---that initially seemed contradictory but now are making sense. I must have one of those strange set of internal sensors that don't like high EPAP pressure. It is amazing to me how much better I am feeling in the morning now---finally getting some of that "new person" sort of zip back into my outlook for the day.

Perhaps when I have a few months of consistent results I will go back to auto mode and see where the machine titrates. And I still have not figured out why it sometimes drops IPAP abruptly while I am inhaling and then tries to cycle up a short IPAP burst, but hopefully Respironics tech support will eventually get back to me with an answer. It is either programmed behavior, or a well know issue they are working on. It is so hard for vendors to admit anything like this---I worked for electronics and software companies for 22 years, and nobody wants to admit their product may function less than ideally in all situations. Too many legal issues.

There also seems to be some light with a sleep doc in Toronto about monitoring OSA patients much more closely. A doc there is thinking about starting a service---of course in cahoots with ResMed, to pull data from patient's machine weekly for assessment and possible action. Of course, the manufacturers want some of that service bureau revenue so it will be a slow process, but at least someone is moving in the right direction.

Peace