sleep stages

stages3n4 · Post by **stages3n4** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:15 pm

I'm sure I'm not alone, but was anyone else surprised to find they had a sleep problem? I went years never feeling rested, but if you would have asked me if I have a problem sleeping, I would have said no. Fall asleep with little problem, "slept" the night through with very little waking.

First study showed big problem with leg/limb jerks, so bad that they couldn't judge if apnea was a problem because of the leg thing. Didn't do second study until about two years passed, then legs were more under control due to meds, and apnea registered moderate to severe.

What I'm wondering is if other people's studies showed the same thing. I have good sleep efficiency, over 90%, but in all three studies done, I spend no time in sleep stages 3 or 4, the delta stages. Has anyone after doing therapy for while had another study done, and with therapy were you able to spend time in stages 3 and 4?

I've gleened good information on how to ease therapy, and survive it. To boil down my question, can anyone tell me if therapy has helped them not just sleep, but sleep really really well?

If you were to ask, I slept better a week ago, prior to starting therapy. I know I'm repeating myself, but without therapy, I could "sleep" the night through, will therapy actually get me the restful restorative sleep I need?

Slinky · Post by **Slinky** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:19 pm

Unless there is another underlying problem not discover, YES, eventually, w/patience controlling and eliminating the apneas should get you good, restful sleep. Its getting used to and finding a good fitting mask that is comfortable that usually causes the delay in getting restful sleep. Hang in there. My first 30+ nights on CPAP resulted in my feeling more exhausted than any time I can ever remember in my entire life! Then I finally found a mask that I could make peace with. I am MORE rested now than before starting CPAP - but - I "ain't" "there" yet. Whilst my stats look pretty good we still haven't "quite" found my "sweet spot" yet. But I can definitely see light at the end of the tunnel FINALLY. So hang in there.

kteague · Post by **kteague** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 5:49 pm

Hi. My course was similar to yours. Three studies over several years were negative for sleep apnea due to the limb movements (PLMD). Though the limb movements were treated, they still showed up in subsequent studies. I actually think people with OSA and PLMD should have another study while on their cpap to see what their sleep looks like with both treatments in place and adjusted to.

Not sure which med you're on for the limb movements, but keep in mind it is not unusual over time to build a tolerance to them and start feeling worse again and not know why.

Hope you get things in sync soon and enjoy a good night's sleep.

Kathy

cohodependent · Post by **cohodependent** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:35 am

As you get older you will have less Slow Wave Sleep, stages 3&4.

The Legs thing can also be caused by UARS. In my lab we titrate for legs to see if we can make them go away. Some times it works, and some times it does not. You never know until you try.

snoozeandlose · Post by **snoozeandlose** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:33 pm

I was diagnosed with OSA, used the cpap consistently and felt better, but never great. I blamed my continuing fatigue on long term depression because I didn't know about tweaking my settings, etc. I continued to feel worse and had another study that was useless, but they did increase my pressure. Two years later out of desperation I found a different sleep doc and had a third study. They said my apnea was being controlled with a full face mask since I was mouth breathing. After two more months with no improvement in fatigue I went back. The doc looked at the study data and told me I was sleep deprived because I was getting no stage 3 or 4 sleep. He called my problem alpha wave intrusion--meaning the alpha brain waves don't slow down after I fall asleep and as a result keep the delta waves from getting me into stage 3 and 4 sleep.

This may not be your problem, but at least rule it out. I slept for hours and never felt rested. I am on meds now and am slowing feeling less depressed and thinking more clearly, my memory is improving and I need less sleep. It's my understanding that non restorative sleep disorders and OSA are two different diagnosis. Good Luck.

elliejose · Post by **elliejose** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 8:42 pm

what meds did the md prescribe for you for this?

girlsaylor · Post by **girlsaylor** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:07 pm

I didn't have any stages 3/4 sleep at either sleep study either, zero, zip, nada, both without and with the xpap treatment. My sleep efficiency scores were around 80% both times, if I remember. Might have to double check those. Been awhile since I've looked at them.

From what I'm reading here, I am not alone in possibly having more than one sleep disorder - both OSA and non-restorative sleep, if that's the same thing as not having any stages 3/4 sleep.

I would like to know if Alpha Wave intrusion is ALWAYS the cause of zero stages 3/4 sleep? If there are other causes, other than some age-related reduction (but I've not read of age-related elimination) of stages 3/4, I've not found any info on other causes. Can anybody shed any light on this?

girlsaylor

sharon1965 · Post by **sharon1965** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:45 pm

cohodependent wrote:As you get older you will have less Slow Wave Sleep, stages 3&4.

The Legs thing can also be caused by UARS. In my lab we titrate for legs to see if we can make them go away. Some times it works, and some times it does not. You never know until you try.

what is 'UARS'?

thanks

rested gal · Post by **rested gal** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:43 pm

sharon1965 wrote:what is 'UARS'?

Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome

Links about UARS:

http://www.clevelandclinicmeded.com/dis ... /sleep.htm

http://www.apneasupport.org/viewtopic.php?t=5443

http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/115/4/1127

http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/conte ... 161/5/1412

http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/conte ... 161/5/1413

viewtopic.php?p=101358

sleepydave (RRT, RPSGT, manager of an accredited sleep lab -- same person who goes by the nickname "StillAnotherGuest" on this board) wrote an interesting post about UARS:

New Here/Need help with Sleep Study Results

____________________________________

sleepydave
Moderator [apneasupport.org]
Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 813
Location: In the Sleep Laboratory

What's UARS?

Hi Arline!
UARS is the acronym for Upper Airway Resistance Syndrome. It is characterized by respiratory events that are not severe enough to be classified as apneas or hypopneas still cause arousals. These respiratory events can be snores or minor narrowing of the airway, but the increased negative intrathoracic pressure trying to draw air through the restricted airway, as well as the arousals, can cause the same havoc as plain old OSA.
Here's an interesting blurb that should perk your ears up:

UARS

So it's still nothing to sneeze at.
Sure, continue to gather more info, including maybe seeing an ENT. Also keep in mind that surgery of the upper airway can have some significant associated hazards, so don't make that decision lightly.
See what the CPAP results bring, then maybe go from there.

sleepydave

______________________________

Click the red word "UARS" in sleepydave's comments to go to the ncbi.nlm.nih.gov link in it.

Interesting UARS links were posted by SleepyJ in a topic at this clickable link:
Sleep Studies Forum, apneasupport.org, August 2006.

sharon1965 · Post by **sharon1965** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:08 am

thanks, RG!

you rock with the info!

sharon

sleep stages

sleep stages

Sleep stages and multiple disorders

no stage 3 or 4 either, and not all that old