Really, really vivid dreams

ZuniWolf · Post by **ZuniWolf** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:25 am

Greetings, gang.....

I have done some research in the archives and haven't found a solution to my problem yet.

I have no problems dreaming. In fact, I can recall dreams that I had as a child. My dreams occur in in all the senses - sight, smell, taste, touch, and feel. Each morning I can give extremely detailed accounts on the nights' prior dreams, including what things smelled/tasted like and what people wore. This has been happening all my life, and has NOT changed since I went on xPAP four months ago.

According to my last sleep study in October 2006, I spent most of my time in REM sleep (big surprise there!) and very little sleep in stages 3 and 4 (the restful ones). For the last few decades, I wake up feeling like a convoy of truck had run over me in my sleep. I get no rest whatsoever.

Food intake makes no difference. Prescribed sleeping pills make no difference. Alcohol intake makes no difference.

With the sleep Dr's permission, I have adjusted the pressure on my xpap several times to experiment. No difference in my dreams or sleep quality.

The sleep Dr. said if the xPAP didn't work, the only thing he could prescribe is stimulants, which do not solve the actual problem.

Have any of you had this dream problem? How did you deal with it or resolve it?

TIA

Jayne

zorrro13 · Post by **zorrro13** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:39 am

i know exactly what u mean. osa kicked in around a year ago like a bullet. i went from great sleep to a wreck in a very short space of time. the vivid dreams or what seem more like hallucinations also started, I could wake up and go 4 a pee and would resume the event from where i left off and wake remembering every detail. They stop if I Imanage to grab a few hours on my machine. This info is no help to you i know but thought i would respond as i haven't seen much info myself on the subject.

kteague · Post by **kteague** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:05 am

Hi Jayne. Can you post your study results? Maybe there's a clue in there. Plus, I'm curious about exactly how much REM sleep you are speaking of.

In the 5 studies I've had in the past 10 years they've been all over the board. Never had too much REM but the only one where REM was even close to normal was when Periodic Limb Movement robbed me of Stages 3 & 4 but it was noted in regards to those movements that "REM sleep was spared".

That may not be your case, but did the sleep study results identify what it is that is causing your out-of-kilter sleep stages? Many find OSA is worse during REM, but maybe you're just not one of those persons. If OSA is the cause and your treatment is proven (I repeat, proven) to be therapeutic, seems there's more digging to be done rather than settle for stimulants instead of answers. Now, medication may be helpful as you work through this, but will not solve the root problem of your body not getting the restorative sleep it needs.

Having a full understanding for yourself of the details of your sleep study is the place to start. Maybe you already have that. But then having nightly data available in regards to the effectiveness of your cpap treatment seems to me to be a logical next step.

Keep providing information. There are some folks on here who are exceptional at sorting thru the data haystack to find that needle. And quite probably someone will chime in soon with a "me too". Best wishes.

Kathy

NightHawkeye · Post by **NightHawkeye** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:51 am

Jayne, what does your Encore Pro data show? I ask only because the usual reason people here remember their dreams is that they are being awakend during REM sleep by apnea events. I know that was certainly true for me. When one sleeps undisturbed through REM then one tends not to remember dreams. (At least that's my understanding.) Does Encore Pro show that you are continuing to have a high AHI? Whether apnea or another cause, it sounds like your REM sleep is being continually disturbed.

Regards,
Bill

pedroski · Post by **pedroski** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:28 pm

Hi Jayne & Bill,

My experience has been along the lines of what Bill mentioned. I had a strong REM rebound once starting pap and had very vivid dreams which I was actually enjoying, but once I have grown accustomed to pap and got over my sleep debt the dreams have stopped or as Bill suggested, I don't remember them because successful treatment means I'm not waking up in REM all the time.

Good luck

Peter

NarcoApneac · Post by **NarcoApneac** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:45 pm

ZuniWolf,

Your experience with dreaming makes me think that Narcolepsy might be a possibility. Perhaps your "vivid/realistic" dreams are hypnogogic or hypnopompic hallucinations. Other symptoms of narcolepsy are excessive daytime sleepiness, cataplexy (rem paralysis while awake, usually provoked by strong emotion), sleep paralysis (rem paralysis persisting into wakefulness), automatic behaviors (performing typical tasks while partially asleep, and with little or no memory afterward), and micro sleeps (short lapses in wakefulness). Not all symptoms need to be present for a diagnosis of narcolepsy. If some of these symptoms sound familiar, perhaps some internet research and a chat with your doctor are in order.

A diagnosis typically involves an MSLT, a multiple sleep latency test. After a decent night's sleep, you're given the opportunity to nap 4 or 5 times for at most 15 minutes at 2 hour intervals. They measure how fast you fall asleep and how fast you go into REM sleep. Short sleep latencies, and REM in 2 or more daytime naps indicate narcolepsy.

CPAP will probably help with any apnea present, but doesn't address narcolepsy directly.

For EDS in narcolepsy, the usual pharmacological treatment involves stimulants of various sorts: Caffeine, Amphetamines, Methylphenidate (Ritalin), or Modafinil (Provigil).

For the problems with dreaming a REM blocker can be prescribed. The most common REM blockers are the Tricyclic and some of the more modern antidepressants. Some of the antidepressants can be somewhat stimulating, and some can be sedating which can help with night time sleep. GHB, gamma-hydroxybutrate, (brand name Xyrem) is sometimes prescribed to consolidate night time sleep and help with cataplexy.

Of course, nothing beats napping.

Good Luck!

OldHippie · Post by **OldHippie** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:44 pm

I used to have those vivid dreams before I started treatment. They were so very real and the dreams stayed with me long after waking up.

Since beginning CPAP however, my dreams are "normal"...not particularly vivid and quickly forgotten.

I can't provide you with an answer...all I can do is tell you how it was for me. in some ways, I actually MISS my dreams. Not only were they very real but sometimes I actually continued the dreams when I fell back to sleep.

Really strange, isn't it.

I hope you get this all figured out!!

In my prayers,
Louise

ZuniWolf · Post by **ZuniWolf** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:37 am

Thanks to those who replied to my question. Sorry I didn't reply sooner....I'm still in a fog most days.

I think there may be something to me having interrupted REM, especially when I wake up a lot to reseat my mask because of leaks.

I also realize that I have many of the aspects of narcolepsy. The biggest one are the hypnogogic dreams as I fall asleep. I even remember one vividly from when I had an MSLT 20 years ago. Back then I was diagnosed as having "idiopathic hypersomnia." Legal speed was the answer back then (but not to my weight problem <g> I never lost weight on dexedrine. <bg>) I am the only person I know who can fall asleep on speed......

I don't have the card reader and software yet to know my "sleep numbers." I had the sleep clinic read my Smart Card, but the tech only printed out a chart of my compliance and mask leaks. Said they got the more advanced numbers from their actual sleep tests. I was thankful for what I got.

My fiance says I still snored and had hypopneas on 14. Sleep Dr told me to go to 16, but am having mask sealing problems at that flow.

Will save my pennies for the card reader and software, and will see Dr about one of the newer daytime stimulants that is supposed to be easier on my heart, Provigil.

Thanks,

Jayne

Wulfman · Post by **Wulfman** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:59 am

Jayne,

I feel like I could write a lengthy post on this subject.....from my experiences.....but I'll try to refrain from that.

According to the "experts", as we get older, we spend more time in REM and less in stages 3 and 4.

I've found that when I am more physically and mentally tired, I tend to sleep deeper and dream less. And, conversely, when I'm getting too much rest, I dream a lot more. I've also noticed that my AHI is slightly higher on the nights that I sleep deeper and don't dream (or don't remember them). And, I don't toss and turn as much. The last several weeks have reinforced this idea.....as far as it relates to me.

Even before I started this therapy, I know I dreamed alot, but they were "darker" and more mysterious dreams.....now, they're different and not like that anymore. I also used to have dreams that would repeat (to some degree)......not in the last two years.

I would suggest getting the card reader and software......you'll spend less than going back to the doctors.

Best wishes,

Den

kteague · Post by **kteague** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:18 am

Hi again. Sorry to hear you are still struggling. Did your titration study show that your distribution of sleep stages was helped by cpap? If not, I would want them to identify and correct the cause and then confirm effectiveness.

When I was at my worst, I had most of the narcolepsy symptoms. Cpap treatment and changing my sleep patterns helped most of those symtoms. It's hard to know the balance of what helped how much because at the same time I was trying to get the hang of cpap, I stopped working and I quit fighting sleep. Except in rare occasions, when I feel sleepy, I yield almost immediately (often no choice). This combo improved the quality(alertness) of my awake time. Unfortunately I still fall asleep at least 5 to 10 times a day. If I fight it, it turns to a continuim of dozens of microsleeps until I completely disconnect. (Yes, this is a vast improvement.) Just due to the progress thusfar, I'm hopeful that with the final piece of controlling my limb movements that my sleep (and my life) will become 'normal' and the sleep I experience will become consolidated and sufficient.

Narcolepsy has been discussed on here recently. I'm just not sure that exreme sleep depriviation might be initially mistaken for narcolepsy, but that could be denial on my part. My father had REM Behavior Disorder (he was dangerous - acted out his realistic bad dreams) and probable OSA, but we'll never know if his falling asleep anywhere and everywhere would have qualified for a diagnosis is today's sleep diagnostics, or if it's heriditary.

I don't know what your answers may be, I just encourage you to not continue too too long waiting for improvement. Yes, there will be some dream changes while adjusting to life on Cpap, with REM rebound, sleep debt, etc. Just communicate with your doc and trust your gut if you reach the point you feel you are not on the expected path. If your cpap treatment is consistently therapeutic yet you're not getting better, a shot in the dark with treatment will be like putting a bandaid near a sore - doesn't meet the need. Ask and expect answers (as much as is reasonable) for treatment decisions.

Please post how you are coming along. Your situation intrigues me due to a few similarities.

Best wishes.

Kathy

ZuniWolf · Post by **ZuniWolf** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:16 pm

Kathy and gang,

Will keep you posted. The VA pays for my visits to the sleep Dr. and for my sleep test. (Thankfully!) However, they won't pay for the card reader and software, so I may eventually pay out of pocket for those items.

My sleep study DID show that I spent very little time in stages 3 & 4 sleep, mostly in fragmented REM. I am pretty disappointed that the CPAP didn't help much after 4 months. It seemed to cut down on my snoring but I am still NOT rested.

However, I've been doing some other research into menopause and thyroid problems, and discovered that some of my problems may also stem from those and a thing called "insulin resistance." I found these connections on a site called womentowomen.com. I will be asking my new primary Dr. about these things when I finally get to see him this Friday.

Jayne

RAINSUX · Post by **RAINSUX** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:57 pm

ZuniWolf, I live in Albuquerque. Do you go to the VA here? They will send you to subsequent sleep studies? As long as it took me to get the first one, I didn't think I had a chance of ever getting another one. I got the impression that they were finished with me after I got the machine (unless I had "problems". What about replacement masks and parts?
I haven't needed anything yet so I haven't asked.

I bought the Encore Pro software and card reader, and it is helping me see what is going on. I would be happy to download your data for you sometime when you're in town so you can see your numbers.

Sam

ZuniWolf · Post by **ZuniWolf** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:27 pm

Sam,

Yes, I go to the Albq VA and had the sleep test referral and CPAP equipment through them. The techs at the pulmonary lab are friendly but not at all knowledgeable about the equipment. I think they will try to work with you on the equipment, but their knowledge is pretty limited (not entirely through their own fault.)

I had to go back to them to get a "medium" FFM because I was originally given a "small" and it wouldn't seal worth a hoot. I asked them to read my card and they said they couldn't. You could probably get replacement parts from them, though.

Then I went back to the sleep center and got a tech there to read my card. However, all she got was compliance and mask leak data. She said their office software didn't read AHI reports, etc. She also said that if the card had not originally been programmed to do all the readouts that you couldn't get the additional data off it even if you had the proper software.

Needless to say, I felt pretty bruised from being batted back and forth between the VA and sleep center.

My new primary DID authorize a second study, which really shocked the staff (according to the person I got on TeleCare. <g>) I haven't scheduled it yet, though, since the sleep center lost the referral from the VA even though the sleep center sent me a letter after I got my copy of the referral saying I better schedule my appointment soon.

Confused?? Me, too!

Thanks for your offer to read my card....will probably take you up on it.

Jayne

Snoredog · Post by **Snoredog** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:39 am

I would research the path of Bipolar disorder and Lucid dreaming. There are several types of Bipolar disorder with different symptoms.

ZuniWolf · Post by **ZuniWolf** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:06 am

Snoredog,

Thanks for the tip. I was diagnosed bi-polar once 20 years ago, but my "manics" were not crazy and actually the only times I felt human. <g> The lithium just cut out those good peaks and the antidepressant didn't.

I'm sure the science is much newer now, so I'll check it out!

Jayne

Really, really vivid dreams