Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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InsomniacZombie
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Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by InsomniacZombie » Thu May 21, 2026 1:35 pm

Please help, I am at my wits ends :(

I am new here and my username is not an accident - I feel tired and function like a zombie, if not my ADHD meds in the morning I would not be able to get out the door...

To give a bit more context - I am female, just above 40 years old. I don't remember EVER sleeping well. By the end of the day I just collapse and in the morning I wake up dog tired. I was sent to ENT specialist and WatchPad-One test was ordered.

What I was reporting:
I am constantly waking up due to feeling of unable to breathe and hearing myself snore at the same time.

Lately I was diagnosed with ADHD but I don't know if the symptoms are actually ADHD or result of chronic lack of quality sleep throughout my life. I seriously am not able to comprehend when people say they feel refreshed in the morning - I never had that feeling.

Below my results. Dr said ironically that I am very loud snorer at 40db. I started to cry, no need to say that - when I look at the charts there are clearly instances where I wake up and snoring at those times is at least 70db (it looks like it is going of the chart!). He can not see anything obstructive or worrying therefore this all might be in my head and there is nothing anyone can do...

Is he right?
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Nocibur
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Re: Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by Nocibur » Fri May 22, 2026 5:00 am

IIWY I'd see a REAL sleep physician and get a REAL NPSG.

Based on the data you've presented (95% sleep efficiency) there is no support for a dx. of insomnia. Look it up and see if you meet criteria.

The WatchPAT snoring report is not that overwhelming but based on your observations see a good ENT guy and get his evaluation.

What is impressive is that you have dozens (hundreds?) of PAT/HR arousals so there is clearly SOMETHING that is TOTALLY destroying your sleep continuity:

insomnia.jpg
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InsomniacZombie
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Re: Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by InsomniacZombie » Fri May 22, 2026 11:39 pm

Thank you so much @Nocibur for replying.

I'm sorry, what I meant by insomnia is not sleeping well, probably I should have used different word, but I am not thinking clearly... the brain fog is really hard at times, especially towards end of the day when I posted.

I am a bit green with abbreviations, what does the NPSG means? I tried google, but it gives me dozens of possibilities.

I have no clue how to read those PAT Amp and BMP graphs, I can see spikes in pulse rate but that's about the limit of my abilities. How do I count those PAT/HR arousals, how many per hour there would be on average from this graph?

I saw ENT specialist, that's the one who made me cry. I got impression that I am wasting his time because there was nothing there on respiratory events graph. He said that there is no cure for snoring, everything on the market is a gimmick and if I wake up to it then there is not much that can be done (roundabout saying "stop whining and get used to it").

Something is definitely wrong with my breathing, because I not only have problem sleeping; any cardio and I start gasping for the air from as far back as I remember. My nose just blocks completely and I have feeling of something in my throat (and is not allergies, that was checked). The only cardio I can do is cycling - I do get some slight problems breathing there but far less than from anything like running, walking up the stairs, or gym classes. I can also walk really fast and that's ok, but as soon I transition to running etc is game over for me. Heavy weight lifting is fine, actually I am surprisingly good at lifting heavy thing so I don't think my breathing problems are caused by any cardiovascular issues, although my blood pressure is usually quite high so I might be wrong.

ENT guy sent me back to GP. Problem in UK is, if specialist does not see anything wrong, then GP will just tell me that I am "overreacting". I really feel like I am living in completely different reality than anyone else and nobody is able to see that mine is actually a hell.

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Nocibur
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Re: Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by Nocibur » Sat May 23, 2026 5:00 am

InsomniacZombie wrote:
Fri May 22, 2026 11:39 pm
I saw ENT specialist, that's the one who made me cry. I got impression that I am wasting his time because there was nothing there on respiratory events graph. He said that there is no cure for snoring, everything on the market is a gimmick and if I wake up to it then there is not much that can be done (roundabout saying "stop whining and get used to it").
Did he do a physical exam and identify the areas that could be responsible for the snoring? Yeah there's plenty of crap out there if you arbitrarily search for "snoring solutions" but the ENT guy should say "swollen turbinates" or "fat uvula" or "giant palate" - IOWs, identify the cause. Then you address the cause. A lot of solutions are surgical, could try some inhaled steroids.

As an aside, CPAP can usually fix primary snoring, but it would probably out of pocket.

A normal heart rate graph (or as close to normal as I could find) should look roughly like this:
1000007699.jpg
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A HR change of 6 is classified as an event, so this guy has very few events. BTW, "spikes" are often artifact and should be ignored (that includes those snoring spikes).

Theoretically, a HR graph should be an almost straight line with a gradual decline over the night.

However, you have so many HR events packed together you have a bar instead of a line. Again, dozens to hundreds.

In order to accurately assess that you have to get the actual WatchPAT file and upload to a third part server.

An NPSG is a nocturnal polysomnogram - a "real" sleep study.

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Re: Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by Pugsy » Sat May 23, 2026 5:07 am

NPSG in this situation refers to Nocturnal Polysomnogram,

https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-proced ... c-20394877

Done in a lab setting of some sort with a tech in attendance and is much more comprehensive than the Watch Pat test.

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Nocibur
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Re: Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by Nocibur » Sat May 23, 2026 5:16 am

Nocibur wrote:
Sat May 23, 2026 5:00 am
so this guy has very few events.
And that is a guy with a bunch of respiratory events, as evidenced by all those desaturations.

So anyway, IMO your approach should be threefold:

Proper assessment of snoring (and again, those spikes are probably artifact, and overall the report doesn't seem to be all that impressive to the point where it's the cause of your issues) with Type I monitored NPSG and a consult with a real ENT;

Assess the tons of HR/PAT events, again with Type I monitored NPSG;

Assess your apparent low aerobic threshold, ideally with cardiopulmonary exercise testing (CPX).

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Nocibur
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Re: Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by Nocibur » Sat May 23, 2026 5:27 am

InsomniacZombie wrote:
Fri May 22, 2026 11:39 pm
I have no clue how to read those PAT Amp and BMP graphs, I can see spikes in pulse rate but that's about the limit of my abilities. How do I count those PAT/HR arousals, how many per hour there would be on average from this graph?
Again, spikes are probably artifact, but to calculate PAT and HR events we'll have to get the WatchPAT file and manually analyze it. Manually count them (not really that hard). I have ZZZPat5.4.84.4_Full which should work. Or you could try it yourself.

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Nocibur
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Re: Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by Nocibur » Sat May 23, 2026 5:31 am

Let me toss out one little tidbit (but don't get tunnel vision and think "AHA! That's it!!).

Severe PLMs can generate a PAT pattern like that:
plmPAT.jpg
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Note that the zoom-in is looking at just a few minutes.

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Nocibur
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Re: Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by Nocibur » Sat May 23, 2026 7:01 am

Nocibur wrote:
Sat May 23, 2026 5:16 am
[oximeter report]...all those desaturations.
Now, you might say, "Gee Noc, couldn't that also be just jumping around artifact?" and I certainly couldn't argue that, especially if you look closely, the "desaturations" actually begin by going up.

But we ain't looking at that anyway...

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InsomniacZombie
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Re: Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by InsomniacZombie » Sat May 23, 2026 7:36 am

Thank you a ton Noctibur and Pugsy - you have no idea how reassuring it feels to have someone non related to me validate that something is very off with my sleeping - even if the cause is yet unknown :heart: I've been through so much medical gaslighting that I am sometimes really close to depression.

Did he do a physical exam and identify the areas that could be responsible for the snoring?
The ENT doctor did do a physical exam - there is nothing wrong with my septum or airway passages. The symptoms I have are from as from as early I can remember (childhood basically, I don't remember not having it) so I went through removal of turbinates twice - currently I have so big passage that one can push objects of a width of a pen straight to my throat. He said that the second procedure overdone it and one can not do anything to reverse it. He said that sometimes that tissue grows a bit back by itself but because those procedures were done so many years ago this is highly unlikely now. My nose skin collapses completely and closes when I breathe very hard and he said there is nothing that helps that apart from nose trips, but I already tried that and that was useless, they are too flexible and the skin still collapses. He was adamant that no surgical procedure offered will help it. But the again my symptoms where for years before that started to happen so this is not the cause of it (although probably does not help now). He was not concerned about snoring to be honest - he said that most people snore and there is nothing to be done with it. He only referred me back to GP because i started crying, he was quite happy to see me out the door with no further steps to follow. In fact he already discharged be me from hospital outpatient ENT care.

BTW, "spikes" are often artifact and should be ignored (that includes those snoring spikes).
Those spikes are most likely correct. When I sleep with someone in the same room they also confirm that I do not snore constantly, more of heavy breathe/quiet snore and then there is sudden very loud snore sound that gets me jolted up immediately. I can hear this snoring sound while waking up too, and it is on the way trying breathing in, it is basically gasping for air - the closest I can describe it is the sound that a pig makes when excited, definitely much much louder than 40db. Once person jumped out of the bed getting seriously scared because this is really loud from relatively quiet in comparison heavy breathing/quiet snoring. The spike in heart beat at this time is probably also correct too as I wake up dead scared due to sudden loud noise.

Assess your apparent low aerobic threshold
In terms of what causes my lack of ability of exercising I have no idea. General Practice (GP) doctors seem to be disinterested finding out as many things they proposed did not help. Steroid sprays, non steroid sprays, blue and brown inhalers, wearing nasal strips while exercising, controlled air temperature (like exercising inside gym rather than outside) - nothing helps. It seems cardio in colder temperature is a bit better but this is matter of me gasping for air maybe 2-3 min later than in warmer air. They tested me for almost anything allergen wise and nothing really came up. Nowdays I usually get dismissive attitude, probably they are thinking I made with it through my life so far then I can do with it for a bit longer (I definitely get that impression). I start profusely sweating too when I start any cardio, although not so much with cycling (more like a normal person) - there must be something different about that one type of exercise, but I haven't figured what yet. I recently started to ponder if this is to do with my upper body being more or less in the same position - weights and cycling do not move my torso much. I will ask GP to refer me for some cardiopulmonary exercise testing as advised, they may not offer that, but I am not a rich person so going through GP is more realistic for me as this is free in UK.

Theoretically, a HR graph should be an almost straight line with a gradual decline over the night.
However, you have so many HR events packed together you have a bar instead of a line. Again, dozens to hundreds.
That makes me really worried now, looking at my graph it seems i have handful of instances where the amplitude was less than 6... this is all over the place, with differences of 20 doing most of the "bar" shape.

In order to accurately assess that you have to get the actual WatchPAT file and upload to a third part server.
I am not sure if I can get the WathPat file - I will ask the ENT department and if that won't help, use freedom of information act. Not sure if they are keeping those files after someone doing report evaluation. I think I still have an app on my phone for it and watch like device itself - would that be any useful in obtaining that file?

Today is Saturday so I can not do much, on Monday we have a national day off in UK - I will call my Medical Surgery on Tuesday to book GP appointment and ask for both nocturnal polysomnogram and cardiopulmonary exercise testing. Sound like a really good advice on the way forward.

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Nocibur
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Re: Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by Nocibur » Sat May 23, 2026 10:07 am

InsomniacZombie wrote:
Sat May 23, 2026 7:36 am
I think I still have an app on my phone for it and watch like device itself - would that be any useful in obtaining that file?
No, that's just to run the test. We need the analysis software, which interestingly you can get yourself:

https://itamar.cloud/

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Nocibur
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Re: Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by Nocibur » Sat May 23, 2026 10:24 am

InsomniacZombie wrote:
Sat May 23, 2026 7:36 am
Those spikes are most likely correct. When I sleep with someone in the same room they also confirm that I do not snore constantly, more of heavy breathe/quiet snore and then there is sudden very loud snore sound that gets me jolted up immediately. I can hear this snoring sound while waking up too, and it is on the way trying breathing in, it is basically gasping for air - the closest I can describe it is the sound that a pig makes when excited, definitely much much louder than 40db. Once person jumped out of the bed getting seriously scared because this is really loud from relatively quiet in comparison heavy breathing/quiet snoring. The spike in heart beat at this time is probably also correct too as I wake up dead scared due to sudden loud noise.
This is an important differentiation. That sounds to me less a "snore" but more like a "start". A snore might cause an arousal or wake you up, but a start is the sleep disruption. See hypnic jerk:

https://www.health.com/hypnic-jerks-8710756

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Nocibur
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Re: Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by Nocibur » Sat May 23, 2026 10:29 am

CPX will tell you everything you know about exercise tolerance. It'll be slick if you have that available there.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/d ... tress-test

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InsomniacZombie
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Re: Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by InsomniacZombie » Sat May 23, 2026 10:57 am

So much information in just 2 days, that I could not gather in 40 years... Internet is really a wonderful thing!

Nocibur wrote:
Sat May 23, 2026 10:07 am
No, that's just to run the test. We need the analysis software, which interestingly you can get yourself:
Ok, which one do I chose and what do I do with it after? Sorry for asking so many question, I am just excited that I may finally stamp on something that may actually help me find the answers!

Nocibur wrote:
Sat May 23, 2026 10:24 am
This is an important differentiation. That sounds to me less a "snore" but more like a "start". A snore might cause an arousal or wake you up, but a start is the sleep disruption. See hypnic jerk:
I am not sure that this is a start/hypnic jerk, when I looked at few definitions it says that the sound that jolts one up is imaginary/auditory hallucination - the sound I hear is definitely there, other people can hear it too, it is not snapping or bang, it is loud crackling/raspy gasping, and it is loud - it could almost wake the dead out of a sudden. The jolt up is less of a uncontrolled twitch in any direction and more of a instant wake up ready for battle - never banged myself accidentally over anything during it, just sudden wake up.
If you look at my graph the very bottom one shows where I consciously wake up, those are at the same times the sound spikes on the yellow graph and HR on the red graph, that's what is making me think those sudden short loud recorded noises aren't likely outliers, it would check out with what I am experiencing. There are more of those sudden spikes on yellow graph and not every one of them wakes me up - I'd say those more likely might be the outliers or maybe I am not waking up to all of them because I am dog tired.
Another thing I noticed is that I am changing sleep position when those loud spikes happen (literally at the same time or after few of them close together - when there is no spikes I don't toss around, which would suggest to me that my body tries to switch position to open airways - I often wake up at my back with my arms above my head which I read somewhere is an unconscious way for opening the chest for more air.

Nocibur wrote:
Sat May 23, 2026 10:29 am
CPX will tell you everything you know about exercise tolerance.
I really hope I will be able to get it somehow too. I will report back on the additional checks as soon I will see the GP.

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Nocibur
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Re: Is my insomnia just imagination? Please help with WatchPad-One results...

Post by Nocibur » Sat May 23, 2026 12:37 pm

Nocibur wrote:
Sat May 23, 2026 5:27 am
ZZZPat5.4.84.4_Full