New to ACPAP/UARS

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
Seb-Sanfilippo
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by Seb-Sanfilippo » Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:06 pm

Hi Miss Emerita,
I assume you're referring to this.
If you talk with your doctor about other possible causes of your fatigue, be sure to mention that it started in Sept of 2022. Try hard to think if anything else potentially relevant happened at around the same time, ranging from getting a cold to suffering a bereavement. This could include moving to a new house or apartment, noticing a rash or swelling, traveling to a foreign country, testing positive for Covid, changing your diet or your drinking habits -- lots of things to think about.
I am not reluctant to pursue other routes, actually I am seeing a psychologist soon. I also had blood tests done.
But as hard as I try I can't think of any event that could have triggered my fatigue.
Maybe I am repressing something , I guess I will investigate this with the psychologist.

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Miss Emerita
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by Miss Emerita » Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:11 pm

May I ask what blood tests you had done, when you had them, and what the results were?
Oscar software is available at https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/

Seb-Sanfilippo
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by Seb-Sanfilippo » Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:38 pm

I did it at the end of October after complaining of excessive fatigue to my GP
Not sure how to describe the test accurately but it was all ok appart for low magnesium and high cholesterol
Better to ask you if you think there's anything in particular I should have tested

Seb-Sanfilippo
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by Seb-Sanfilippo » Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:56 pm

I have been trying to figure out why I am reluctant to get back to CPAP and it hit me when reading this previous post .
That was the time I felt the worse and had suicidal ideation. Since stopping CPAP I feel marginally better.
Difficult to say for sure if it was the effect of the CPAP but I am terrified of ever feeling as bas as I did during those days
Seb-Sanfilippo wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:45 pm
Hi, I am at the end of my rope. I felt so bad this morning that I almost went to psychiatric emergency. I am thinking more and more about ending my life.
The fatigue is just so unbearable and I can't seem to get any help.
The sleep doctor dismissed sleep apnea and UARS and that there's no reason for me to use a CPAP and that I should take antidepressant instead. The doctors report says my AHI is 9.6, that I have severe problem with maintaining sleep through the night and I have light Hypopnea syndrome linked to the REM sleep. I don't have any other info and I can't get anyone to send me the actual PSG results.
I am so lost, I feel totally abandoned and I have to live with this unbearable fatigue. It's really torture, I didn't know fatigue is actually painful.
I stopped CPAP for two days but I will get back to it and give all I can to make it work, my life depends on it.

Seb-Sanfilippo
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by Seb-Sanfilippo » Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:10 pm

What do you think about this study
Is it not saying that essentially almost all insomnia is caused by breathing problems?
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/ ... 85/2559082

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Miss Emerita
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by Miss Emerita » Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:08 pm

Seb-Sanfilippo wrote:
Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:38 pm
I did it at the end of October after complaining of excessive fatigue to my GP
Not sure how to describe the test accurately but it was all ok appart for low magnesium and high cholesterol
Better to ask you if you think there's anything in particular I should have tested
Sounds like the timing was right; that's good. In a previous post I said this:

"I'm also curious whether you've been evaluated for other possible issues that could result in deep fatigue. These include thyroid problems, anemia, connective tissue disease (or other autoimmune diseases), Lyme disease, low testosterone (for men) and chronic fatigue syndrome."
Oscar software is available at https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/

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Miss Emerita
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by Miss Emerita » Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:11 pm

Seb-Sanfilippo wrote:
Tue Feb 14, 2023 12:56 pm
I have been trying to figure out why I am reluctant to get back to CPAP and it hit me when reading this previous post .
That was the time I felt the worse and had suicidal ideation. Since stopping CPAP I feel marginally better.
Difficult to say for sure if it was the effect of the CPAP but I am terrified of ever feeling as bas as I did during those days
Seb-Sanfilippo wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:45 pm
Hi, I am at the end of my rope. I felt so bad this morning that I almost went to psychiatric emergency. I am thinking more and more about ending my life.
The fatigue is just so unbearable and I can't seem to get any help.
The sleep doctor dismissed sleep apnea and UARS and that there's no reason for me to use a CPAP and that I should take antidepressant instead. The doctors report says my AHI is 9.6, that I have severe problem with maintaining sleep through the night and I have light Hypopnea syndrome linked to the REM sleep. I don't have any other info and I can't get anyone to send me the actual PSG results.
I am so lost, I feel totally abandoned and I have to live with this unbearable fatigue. It's really torture, I didn't know fatigue is actually painful.
I stopped CPAP for two days but I will get back to it and give all I can to make it work, my life depends on it.
I would have a horrible experience with CPAP if I were using a fixed pressure of 4. You might try using the machine during the day or in the evening, preferable in a room other than your bedroom, using a minimum of 7, a maximum of 12, and EPR of 3. If this feels OK to you, you might give it a try at night again.
Oscar software is available at https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/

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Miss Emerita
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by Miss Emerita » Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:33 pm

Seb-Sanfilippo wrote:
Tue Feb 14, 2023 1:10 pm
What do you think about this study
Is it not saying that essentially almost all insomnia is caused by breathing problems?
https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/ ... 85/2559082
The lead author for the study is Barry Krakow. I don't myself have views about him, but others may want to comment. The study had only 20 subjects and no control group. Many of the study flaws are well discussed by the authors themselves (see below). I'd be interested to know whether anyone has replicated their results.

The major limitation of this study is a lack of a control group of normal sleepers, which is a difficult cohort to identify and recruit for research studies.17 Thus, despite the robust findings linking breathing events to 90% of awakenings, the results of this pilot study with a small sample must be interpreted with caution. Even though there is no indication normal sleepers awaken as frequently as patients with insomnia or suffer underlying hyperarousal, the absence of objective normative values in our design prevented us from conducting the requisite analysis in comparison to patients with severe insomnia in our group. Future studies must address this obvious weakness in our protocol. In addition, more useful comparisons would examine other types of patients with insomnia, for example, those who report chronic pain as the primary cause of their sleeplessness or patients with cardiac conditions using diuretics who report nocturia as their most frequent cause of awakenings. Our sample was also skewed with 75% using prescription sedating medications regularly, which may have affected their overall sleep architecture and decreased arousal activity; however, research shows minimal respiratory depressant effects in these drugs.51 Although our findings may be generalizable to patients with insomnia seeking treatment at a sleep medical center, the typical patient with insomnia in the general population probably does not regularly use prescription sedatives.47–50 Last, an alternate interpretation of our findings is supported by emerging research showing that sleep fragmentation (common among patients with insomnia) destabilizes the human airway and creates risk for sleep breathing events.52–54 Research must address these limitations; however, we are unaware of any large-scale projects examining the clinical role of PSG in patients with chronic insomnia.55
Oscar software is available at https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/

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lazarus
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by lazarus » Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:03 pm

Changes in breathing can cause changes in sleep. True.

But changes in sleep also cause changes in breathing, too. Just as true.

Start with an assumption. Hook up some wires. "Prove" whatever you want.

But hey, it's still good science just to document the questions you asked and the questions that remain that need answers someday and then show your peers the data that seemed to present itself without meaningful framing or obvious independent meaning.

And it's fine to explain what it all seems to mean to you (Krakow) as a challenge to others to figure out what it all means to them while everyone continues to figure it all out.

Because that's what people do.

So, for a "study," I give it a 7, 'cause it has a groove and you can dance to it.

Individually, though, the trick for anyone who suspects sneaky SDB troubles is generally and simply to figure out how best to stabilize one's airway with PAP in order to see if that helps how one feels over time.

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Rubicon
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by Rubicon » Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:57 am

robysue1 wrote:
Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:36 am
On the event graph, there's something labeled as Saup. Is that an SaO2 desat event like I assume? If so, a good question is why are there so many of them during the long WAKE period that occurs between 4:20 and 5:30?
Sau précision (artifact)?
Freeze this moment a little bit longer.
Make each sensation a little bit stronger.
Experience slips away.

Seb-Sanfilippo
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by Seb-Sanfilippo » Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:11 pm

I am going to see an ENT/sleep specialist tomorrow
How can present my case?
What should I ask in regards to my concerns about UARS?

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Miss Emerita
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by Miss Emerita » Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:04 pm

Seb-Sanfilippo wrote:
Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:11 pm
I am going to see an ENT/sleep specialist tomorrow
How can present my case?
What should I ask in regards to my concerns about UARS?
From my earlier post (and please do read about POTS):

As for preparation -- I find it very useful to take a written document with me that clearly states the relevant points I want to get across. I've looked back at your posts, and here is the kind of thing I would write up if I were in your place:

Before September of 2022, I was not feeling unusually fatigued, I did not seem to be having respiration-disordered breathing, and I did not suffer from depression or anxiety.

In September of 2022, I began to feel very fatigued, and I began to notice that I was having unrestful sleep, morning headache, dry nose and throat, and neck stiffness.

By December of 2022, I was unable to work. I was also by then experiencing depression, anxiety, palpitations, and acid reflux.

I consulted a doctor, who prescribed Trazedone. I requested a PSG study. It showed that my AHI is 9.6, that I have severe problem with maintaining sleep through the night, and that I have a light hypopnea syndrome linked to the REM sleep.

I have not yet been tested to rule out other causes of the fatigue, e.g., low testosterone, anemia, autoimmune disease, Lyme disease, chronic fatigue syndrome, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, or a thyroid disorder.

I believe the anxiety and depression started after I began to experience fatigue, as a response to the effects the fatigue was having on my life. Likewise, my suicidal thoughts have arisen recently as I contemplate continuing my life in my current condition.

With PAP therapy, I am having an AHI that is generally under 1, and I am no longer experiencing a dry nose and throat. While I have recently been marginally less fatigued, neither the Trazedone nor the PAP therapy have made a significant difference in my condition.

(Of course, I may have gotten some of that wrong!)

One additional thing: You've referred to "fatigue." In English, at any rate, people can mean two rather different things by this. One is best described as sleepiness: the urge to sleep during the day. The other is what I think of as true "fatigue": the kind of feeling we have when we have the flu, as though any exertion can take place only through an act of will. Try hard to think about which of these apply to you (or maybe both do).

Several other things about describing your fatigue: Does it get worse when you exert yourself, e.g., by walking? And what goes along with it: difficulty in thinking of the words for things? difficulty in sustaining attention? difficulty in following a complex train of thought? difficult in speaking at a normal pace? a disinclination to get out of bed? feeling that your muscles are weak? And if you can be specific about the ways your condition has disabled you from work, that could be very helpful.

If possible, bring a trusted friend or family member with you when you go for your Tuesday appointment. That can be a big help in making sure the doctor is truly grasping what you're communicating and in helping you remember later what was said by and to you.

In your place, I would be asking for help in identifying the cause of the fatigue. And in your place I would allow as a theoretical possibility that the fatigue is intensified by depression and anxiety, but I would not allow my medical help to lose track of the fact that the depression and anxiety developed AFTER the fatigue (if that is in fact correct).

P.S. In case POTS is not familiar to you: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/ ... me-fatigue
Oscar software is available at https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/

Seb-Sanfilippo
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by Seb-Sanfilippo » Thu Feb 16, 2023 2:17 pm

@Miss Emerita

Thanks, that's very useful

Seb-Sanfilippo
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by Seb-Sanfilippo » Fri Feb 17, 2023 8:49 am

Wow, finally I think I found a doctor that seems to know something about sleep
I went in well prepared but didn't really need to convince him about taking my sleep problems seriously
He didn't try to convince me that it was all in my head or try to sell me quack therapies
When he mentioned that BiLevel can be used to treat UARS, I felt a eureka moment
Apparently my PSG is next to useless as it is not granular enough and he recommends I do another more detailed PSG
Only caveat, he said I shouldn't use CPAP without a diagnostic and titration as it would cause hyperventilation
I am not sure that makes sense but maybe I misunderstood him

PS: I am a bit sorry that my last few posts haven't been about CPAP therapy
They probably won't be for a while
This forum has been the only place for me to vent about what I am going through, therapy or not
Thanks again for all your supporting messages

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Miss Emerita
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Re: New to ACPAP/UARS

Post by Miss Emerita » Fri Feb 17, 2023 12:25 pm

All of your posts have been appropriate, Seb! I'm very glad to hear you're now working with someone who takes your sleep problems seriously. Do you know when you'll be able to get the next sleep test and a titration? Soon, I hope!

Like you, I'm puzzled about the warning against using CPAP now (hyperventilation??), but if your sleep test might be coming up soon, using CPAP within a week or two of it could distort the findings.
Oscar software is available at https://www.sleepfiles.com/OSCAR/