AHI 3.82 and 2.64

[Babo456]

Hello,

I stumbled across this forum!!

I'm a 31 year old fit male. Have been dealing with chronic day time sleepiness for about 8 years now.

I did sleep study and had AHI of 3.82 and 2.64.

The doctor said this was classed as normal. Everyone is different, so my question is despite me being classed as 'normal' could these limited events be making me tired?

Upper air way resistance syndrome was also mentioned but apparently difficult to diagnose.

I have tried a self moulded guard but hasn't made a difference.

I have a prescription for a CPAP machine privately, which is about £1000. So I'm cautious of spending the money and then it not making a difference but I am getting to my wits end now and will try anything.

It's like being a zombie everyday.

[MMcG]

I think it's highly unlikely that with AHI scores as low as those, sleep apnea is making you tired. Any score less than 5 is considered normal and treatment is usually only recommended for moderate and severe apnea (15-29 and 30+ respectively). To put it in perspective, my sleep study showed a "moderate" AHI of 22.6 and CPAP treatment has reduced that to an average of around 2.5. Two scores - did you do two sleep studies? Was it done in a sleep lab or at home. The latter can underestimate the AHI, because it doesn't really know whether you were awake for lengthy periods or not. As far as I know, the more sophisticated sleep lab studies factor that out of the calculation, so more reliable.

[Julie]

Something else is making you sleepy - your doctor needs to look for it (unless it is UARS which also should be looked at). I wouldn't run out and get any machine just yet.

[Pugsy]

Where are you located?

This statement leads me to believe UK or somewhere similar

I have a prescription for a CPAP machine privately, which is about £1000.

I don't blame you for being hesitant to spend money on something that might not help.
Besides the cost of the machine there's going to be the cost of the mask(s) as well and finding the right mask can be a challenge and some expensive experiments.
If you are somewhere in the UK system then the national system isn't going to help because you don't meet the requirements in terms of severity of OSA.

Most likely your sleep studies were home studies....is that correct?

Is the crushing fatigue and feeling like a zombie your only symptoms of OSA?

How many hours of real sleep are you getting on average?

Are those hours of real sleep fragmented with a lot of wake ups?

Do you take any medications of any kind? If so, what?

UARS is always a possibility and it is hard to make a definitive diagnosis without having an in lab sleep study with a Pes device. Not many sleep labs even do that sort of sleep study even here in the US much less other parts of the world.
It's most usually a diagnosis that they come up with because they have ruled everything else unless someone happens to live somewhere that an in lab sleep study with the Pes device can be done.

[palerider]

I think it's highly unlikely that with AHI scores as low as those, sleep apnea is making you tired.

You're quite wrong. People here *frequently* report feeling better when their AHI is under 2, preferably 1.5 or so compared to the 'considered normal' of 5.

Any score less than 5 is considered normal

To paraphrase one of the respected members of this forum, "'Any score less than 5 is considered normal' is a myth that needs to go away" An AHI of 5 means that your sleep is interrupted, on average, at least every 12 minutes, and quite likely more often since AHI doesn't count all breathing related sleep disturbances.

and treatment is usually only recommended for moderate and severe apnea (15-29 and 30+ respectively).

No, that's wrong, treatment is usually recommended for anything over 5, and 5 is only there because it's "good enough" for insurance and doctors, not because it's actually good

To put it in perspective,

That's irrelevant.

[palerider]

I have a prescription for a CPAP machine privately, which is about £1000. So I'm cautious of spending the money and then it not making a difference but I am getting to my wits end now and will try anything.

It's like being a zombie everyday.

See if you can find a *used* one, preferably a Resmed autoset or better, you'll spend a lot less money on it, and if it doesn't work for you, you can turn around and sell it, heck, you might even make a profit with the market the way it is these days.

[MMcG]

I think it's highly unlikely that with AHI scores as low as those, sleep apnea is making you tired.

You're quite wrong. People here *frequently* report feeling better when their AHI is under 2, preferably 1.5 or so compared to the 'considered normal' of 5.

Any score less than 5 is considered normal

To paraphrase one of the respected members of this forum, "'Any score less than 5 is considered normal' is a myth that needs to go away" An AHI of 5 means that your sleep is interrupted, on average, at least every 12 minutes, and quite likely more often since AHI doesn't count all breathing related sleep disturbances.

and treatment is usually only recommended for moderate and severe apnea (15-29 and 30+ respectively).

No, that's wrong, treatment is usually recommended for anything over 5, and 5 is only there because it's "good enough" for insurance and doctors, not because it's actually good

To put it in perspective,

That's irrelevant

Just wondering why you are so rude to everyone here? I've noticed a pattern. I'm not going to bother arguing with you other than to re-affirm that anything less than five is considered "normal" by most sleep apnea consultants, including mine. You may disagree if you wish, but it's just your opinion, for whatever it's worth. Maybe you have years of medical experience in the sleep apnea field? If so, then your opinion counts for more than mine. Otherwise?

[Pugsy]

Well...here's the deal with that magic "5" number that so many of the medical professionals use for diagnosing OSA.

It's just a number....a line in the sand that they came up with because there has to be line in the sand somewhere.
Does it mean that people who might only have an AHI of 3.0 won't have any symptoms of OSA or benefit from cpap???? Of course not. It's just a line in the sand that someone came up with years ago.

It doesn't mean that it's necessarily "normal" it just means that it doesn't meet existing criteria for the actual diagnosis.

And who knows...some time in the future that "number" may be re-evaluated and changed just like the blood pressure numbers have changed from "normal" to abnormal and "you need meds" numbers....or the blood glucose numbers for the diagnosis of diabetes.

Just because the line in the sand is at so and so....it doesn't mean that the other number someone might have is "normal" meaning not causing a problem with someone.

It's not "normal" to stop breathing 4 times an hour because of air way tissues blocking the airway.
It just happens to be just below the line in the and for earning a diagnosis of OSA.
It also doesn't take into account all the partial blockages that don't earn a flag to make it to that AHI.
Like it takes at least a 10 second reduction in air flow to earn a flag...what happens to all those 9 second events that don't make it to 10 seconds???? They can be just as damaging to overall sleep as that 10 second event but they don't get counted in the AHI.

It's not "normal" to stop breathing at all...but it usually isn't a big deal when we do it rarely...but that doesn't make it "normal". Stopping breathing without us being awake and doing it on purpose...isn't "normal".

[palerider]

Just wondering why you are so rude to everyone here? I've noticed a pattern.

Well, yes, if saying that you're wrong is "rude" then I'm rude. Perhaps you'll like Pugsy's version better, though it's the same information.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you other than to re-affirm that anything less than five is considered "normal" by most sleep apnea consultants, including mine.

Which does not change the fact that an AHI of 5 is still crap rest.
If all you want is "what sleep apnea consultants" give you, then frankly you're in the wrong place, and won't be happy here.

[Miss Emerita]

Babo, like other people, I'm curious why you have reported two AHIs. Could you say more about that?

The ResMed Airsense 10 Autoset is a great machine for most purposes. As you ponder a purchase, though, bear in mind that for UARS, a machine that's able to deliver more "pressure support" is desirable. (Pressure support is the difference in the pressure that is delivered during exhalation and inhalation.) The ResMed Aircurve 10 VAuto can do this, as can the (even more expensive) ResMed Aircurve 10 ASV.

All that said, you could probably recoup much of your expenditure on an Autoset if you were dissatisfied with the results and either wanted to quite using a machine or start using a more specialized machine.

You might want to PM forum member LSAT, who sometimes has machines for sale. Actually I got my VAuto through him, and the transaction went very smoothly.

Shifting gears: is it sleepiness you experience during the day (e.g., a strong urge to nap, or difficulty avoiding dropping off to sleep) or is it more something else, e.g., brain fog or fatigue?

[MMcG]

Well...here's the deal with that magic "5" number that so many of the medical professionals use for diagnosing OSA.

It's just a number....a line in the sand that they came up with because there has to be line in the sand somewhere.
Does it mean that people who might only have an AHI of 3.0 won't have any symptoms of OSA or benefit from cpap???? Of course not. It's just a line in the sand that someone came up with years ago.

It doesn't mean that it's necessarily "normal" it just means that it doesn't meet existing criteria for the actual diagnosis.

And who knows...some time in the future that "number" may be re-evaluated and changed just like the blood pressure numbers have changed from "normal" to abnormal and "you need meds" numbers....or the blood glucose numbers for the diagnosis of diabetes.

Just because the line in the sand is at so and so....it doesn't mean that the other number someone might have is "normal" meaning not causing a problem with someone.

It's not "normal" to stop breathing 4 times an hour because of air way tissues blocking the airway.
It just happens to be just below the line indue the and for earning a diagnosis of OSA.
It also doesn't take into account all the partial blockages that don't earn a flag to make it to that AHI.
Like it takes at least a 10 second reduction in air flow to earn a flag...what happens to all those 9 second events that don't make it to 10 seconds???? They can be just as damaging to overall sleep as that 10 second event but they don't get counted in the AHI.

It's not "normal" to stop breathing at all...but it usually isn't a big deal when we do it rarely...but that doesn't make it "normal". Stopping breathing without us being awake and doing it on purpose...isn't "normal".

Looks like my only "error" was leaving out something like "by most sleep consultants" in my reply. Anyway, Palerider already took me to task for that. Just speaking from personal experience and this is a forum after all, where I presume everyone is encouraged to share their experiences. Just wondering whether there have been any research studies done on the prevalence of "mild" apnea (<15). My guess is that it is very common, i.e there are loads of people walking around feeling a bit tired all the time without knowing why. But as regards AHI's as low as 2.64 (the original poster here) being a likely cause for his being tired all the time, especially considering his age and self-declared physical fitness, surely there is some other underlying cause - I think you responded accordingly already anyway.

[MMcG]

Just wondering why you are so rude to everyone here? I've noticed a pattern.

Well, yes, if saying that you're wrong is "rude" then I'm rude. Perhaps you'll like Pugsy's version better, though it's the same information.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you other than to re-affirm that anything less than five is considered "normal" by most sleep apnea consultants, including mine.

Which does not change the fact that an AHI of 5 is still crap rest.
If all you want is "what sleep apnea consultants" give you, then frankly you're in the wrong place, and won't be happy here.

Since you advised this man to buy a Resmed, I would refer you to Resmed's website here https://www.resmed.com/en-us/sleep-apne ... hi-change/. Anything less than 5 is considered normal by Resmed, the largest manufacturer of CPAP equipment. So you are advising him to buy a machine from a company that says he doesn't need it! But maybe you know better.

[palerider]

Just wondering why you are so rude to everyone here? I've noticed a pattern.

Well, yes, if saying that you're wrong is "rude" then I'm rude. Perhaps you'll like Pugsy's version better, though it's the same information.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you other than to re-affirm that anything less than five is considered "normal" by most sleep apnea consultants, including mine.

Which does not change the fact that an AHI of 5 is still crap rest.
If all you want is "what sleep apnea consultants" give you, then frankly you're in the wrong place, and won't be happy here.

Since you advised this man to buy a Resmed, I would refer you to Resmed's website here https://www.resmed.com/en-us/sleep-apne ... hi-change/. Anything less than 5 is considered normal by Resmed, the largest manufacturer of CPAP equipment. So you are advising him to buy a machine from a company that says he doesn't need it! But maybe you know better.

Since all you want to do is *argue, I'll just tell other people that they can settle for what you consider "good enough" or they can try and make their lives better.

Between us, Pugsy and I have about 24 years of experience and have helped hundreds of people sleep better and feel better.

You've got less than five months "experience" and you still haven't gotten you own therapy working well, and you're in here mounting off to newbies about what they should accept.

I can't even...

[palerider]

where I presume everyone is encouraged to share their experiences.

We like to think that we're here to help other people get better rest and improve their lives. I think you're looking for some kind of social media instead.

[MMcG]

where I presume everyone is encouraged to share their experiences.

We like to think that we're here to help other people get better rest and improve their lives. I think you're looking for some kind of social media instead.

I looked to see if there were forum "rules" which discouraged people from sharing their personal experiences. I couldn't find any. So I'll continue to help others when I can. Why are you so aggressive anyway? And it's not just to me. I really don't need this, so I'm never going to reply to you again. Cheers.