Resmed S8 EPR

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
-SWS
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Post by -SWS » Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:20 pm

-SWS wrote:
DreamStalker wrote: The machine is always slightly behind on the pressure relief so the data is skewed to a little above the average or 11.4 in your case.
Great explanation, DreamStalker! That slight skewing will occur more because of rise and fall times---yet negligibly because of phase lag itself. Additionally, when/if EPR decides to algorithmically suspend the lowering of EPAP pressures, then that too will skew the pressure average upwards. And it will skew the average pressure to varying degrees in that upwards direction on a patient-by-patient basis (depending on each patient's phase-distribution of sleep events).
I just had a very close look at the EPR waveform presented HERE by Dave. On close look pressure-average upward-skewing doesn't appear to be either phase-lag related or rise/fall related. The EPR design feature appears to trigger and phase lock exceptionally well compared to many older BiLevel trigger mechanisms. And the EPR pressure-delivery waveform itself shows a downward pressure-average skewing rather than an upward skewing (that skewing being relative to the reference value mentioned by DreamStalker: comprised of IPAP's setting and EPAP's setting, both summed then divided by two).

So where does that upward skewing of the pressure-average come from then? I have to assume it comes largely from the total amount of time the EPR algorithm safely holds EPAP at the higher value of IPAP. Or in other words, I suspect it largely comes from the minority amount of time the EPR algorithm decides to behave like a CPAP machine (with its higher IPAP/EPAP average) rather than behaving like a BiLevel machine.


kurtr
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Post by kurtr » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:17 am

I have a Resmed S8 that I have used consistently for 6 months.
Last night I changed from auto to cpap mode w/EPR of 3 and set it at my titrated number.
I feel good today but looked at my numbers and the AHI and AI are triple what they normally are ie; AI went from .5-1 normally to 4 and AHI went from 3-4 normally to 10.
I will experiment with this some more but are there any glaring reasons that this would happen?
Thanks,
Kurt


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Wulfman
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Post by Wulfman » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:31 am

kurtr wrote:I have a Resmed S8 that I have used consistently for 6 months.
Last night I changed from auto to cpap mode w/EPR of 3 and set it at my titrated number.
I feel good today but looked at my numbers and the AHI and AI are triple what they normally are ie; AI went from .5-1 normally to 4 and AHI went from 3-4 normally to 10.
I will experiment with this some more but are there any glaring reasons that this would happen?
Thanks,
Kurt
Was your titrated setting close to or the same as what your machine had been typically running at in APAP mode (average pressure)? Maybe without all that pressure change, your body decided to REALLY relax.....

Den

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kurtr
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Post by kurtr » Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:47 am

Wulfman,
Yes, the original titrated pressure in the lab and the 95% ave were the same pressure 9.
I admit I felt much more relaxed in the AM with the EPR on, I just don't understand the higher AHI/AI?
I remember a previous thread discussing people who are sensitive to pressure changes during the night on APAP (activating the nervous system?) is this what you are referring to?
I wonder if this does not allow some sensitive people to really "sleep"?
Kurt


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Post by Slinky » Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:59 am

Hey, DSM, and others who care to comment, I've got a question:

I have the Resmed S8 Elite w/Humidaire 3i. My pressure is set at 6. (Originally I was scripted a pressue of 6 w/C-Flex of 3 but wasn't given a Respironics M I was supposed to get). My EPR was originally set at 2. Its been changed to 0 (altho I wasn't told they'd made the change so don't know when it was made).

I have had some nights where my Efficacy Data has shown the pressure to be anywhere from 6 to 6.4 altho most nights it is 5.6 to 5.8.

If my pressure is set at 6, how in the devil does the Efficacy Data come out w/a pressure above 6 on occasion? I had thought the leak rate might account for that - BUT -

Sat - 14 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.6 - Leak: 0.60L/s
Sun - 15 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.94L/s
Mon -16 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 1.02L/s
Tues - 17 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.6 - Leak: 1.00L/s
Wed - 18 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.42)
Thurs - 19 Oct 06 - Pressure: 6 - Leak: 1.08
Fri - 20 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.54
Sat - 21 Oct 06 - Pressure: 6 - Leak: 0.62
Sun - 22 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.50
Mon - 23 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.6 - Leak: 0.42
Tues - 24 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.6 - Leak: 0.
Wed - 25 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.6 - Leak: 0.42
Thur - 26 Oct 05 - Pressure: 5.6 - Leak: 0.52
Fri - 27 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.6 - Leak: 0.50
Sat - 28 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.6 - Leak: 0.60
Sun - 29 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.6 - Leak: 0.56
Mon - 30 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.4 - Leak: 0.52
Tues - 31 Oct 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.64
Wed - 01 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.6 - Leak: 0.64
Thurs - 02 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.6 - Leak: 0.36
Fri - 03 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.6 - Leak: 0.46
Sat - 04 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.36
Sun - 05 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.48
Mon - 06 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.42
Tues: 07 Nov 07 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.54
Wed - 08 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.50
Thur - 09 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.78
Fri - 10 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 1.24
Sat - 11 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.40
Sun - 12 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.62
Mon - 13 Nov 06 - FORGOT TO CHECK EFFICIENCY DATA BEFORE NOON
Tue - 14 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.32
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is when I suspect they may have changed the EPR to 0
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wed - 15 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.35
Thu - 16 Nov 06 - Pressure: 6.4 - Leak: 0.70
Fri - 17 Nov 06 - Pressure: 6.2 - Leak: 0.96
Sat - 18 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.94
Sun - 19 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.34
Mon - 20 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.38
Tue - 21 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.30
Wed - 22 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.6 - Leak: 0.34
Thu - 23 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.54
Fri - 24 Nov 06 - Pressure: 6.0 - Leak: 0.48
Sat - 25 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.50
Sun - 26 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.42
Mon - 27 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.44
Tue - 28 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.24
Wed - 29 Nov 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.48
Thu - 30 Nov 06 - Pressure: 6.0 - Leak: 0.42
Fri - 01 Dec 06 - Pressure: 6:0 - Leak: 0.56
Sat - 02 Dec 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.30
Sun - 03 Dec 06 - Pressure: 5.8 - Leak: 0.43
Mon - 04 Dec 06 - Pressure: 5.6 - Leak: 0.40
Tue - 05 Dec 06 - Pressure: 6.4 - Leak: 0.46
Wed - 06 Dec 06 - Pressure: 6.4 - Leak: 0.42
Thu - 07 Dec 06 - Pressure: 6.4 - Leak: 0.44
Fri - 08 Dec 06 - Pressure: 6.4 - Leak: 0.66
Sat - 09 Dec 06 - Pressure: 6.4 - Leak: 0.48
Sun - 10 Dec 06 - Pressure: 6.2 - Leak: 0.38
Mon - 11 Dec 06 - Pressure: 6.4 - Leak: 0.46
Tue - 12 Dec 06 - Pressure: 6.4 - Leak: 0.38

I didn't include the AHI, AI, HI info as I didn't think it was relevant. What else could account for this do you think?

And, yes, I've checked and my pressure is STILL set a 6, it hasn't been raised.


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Last edited by Slinky on Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Wulfman » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:16 pm

kurtr wrote:Wulfman,
Yes, the original titrated pressure in the lab and the 95% ave were the same pressure 9.
I admit I felt much more relaxed in the AM with the EPR on, I just don't understand the higher AHI/AI?
I remember a previous thread discussing people who are sensitive to pressure changes during the night on APAP (activating the nervous system?) is this what you are referring to?
I wonder if this does not allow some sensitive people to really "sleep"?
Kurt
Kurt,

I guess I also forgot to ask what your pressure range was set for in APAP mode..
Have you changed masks? (also mask setting in the S8.)
You might leave it at those settings for another night and see if you get similar results. You might experiment with changing EPR setting to 2?
I dunno...... Your results went the opposite direction as mine.....in Auto mode I had somewhat higher (although not significantly) AHI numbers and more consistent apneas than on straight pressure.

Den

(5) REMstar Autos w/C-Flex & (6) REMstar Pro 2 CPAPs w/C-Flex - Pressure Setting = 14 cm.
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StillAnotherGuest
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Musings on EPR

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:55 pm

-SWS wrote:the EPR pressure-delivery waveform itself shows a downward pressure-average skewing rather than an upward skewing (that skewing being relative to the reference value mentioned by DreamStalker: comprised of IPAP's setting and EPAP's setting, both summed then divided by two).
I suppose one could get picky here, and say rather than an average, you would actually take the mean, which takes into account the variable of time-- the spike seen at IPAPpeak is short, whereas most of the time the pressure is closer to baseline (which, for purposes of calculation, is EPR pressure level). So at a pressure of 10 cmH2O, EPR 3.0 cmH20, the mean pressure is probably something like 7.8-8.0 cmH2O vs an average of 8.5 cmH2O, as represented here:

Image

PTAF/CPAP represents patient breathing, upward inflection is inspiration, downward exhalation. Real time pressure measurement in the PRESSURE waveform.
So where does that "upward skewing" of the pressure-average come from then? I have to assume it comes largely from the total amount of time the EPR algorithm safely holds EPAP at the higher value of IPAP. Or in other words, I suspect it largely comes from the minority amount of time the EPR algorithm decides to behave like a CPAP machine (with its higher IPAP/EPAP average) rather than behaving like a BiLevel machine.
In fiddling around with this thing, I've not noted a lot of things that suspends EPR, or when that occurs, that EPR is suspended for very long. So the question would follow, if an expected mean pressure is not seen, then why would that be. I would offer as a possible explanation that resistance to exhalation created a brief pressure surge and forces IPAPpeak > CPAPset, and the net Pmean is now not only greater than the expected mean, but perhaps even greater than the expected average as well. This is seen in the following example:

Image

This waveform set was generated during full face mask utilization at a pressure of 10 cmH2O, EPR 3.0 cmH20. Every breath exceeds CPAPset, with IPAPpeak caused by exhalation against resistance (literally and figuratively, if flow cannot compensate quickly enough, the only variable left is pressure). This also gives the perception of an initial resistance to exhalation, quite contrary to the design of EPR.

The criteria for the latter scenario is not clear. Aside from high exhaled flow rates, I would think that differences in mask properties will result in differences in end-result pressure therapy. Masks with reduced leak rate could create the phenomenon in waveform set 2, as back pressure is created during exhalation through a restricted orrice, perhaps creating the spike supra-therapeutic CPAP. This was apparently demonstrated during observation of waveforms while using a whisper swivel, with a leak rate of 25 LPM @ 10 cmH2O. On the other hand, the actual generation of waveform 2 was done with ResMed UltraFFM, and its leak rate of 37 LPM should have been plenty. Perhaps turbulence based on the location of the exhalation ports, or an increase in dead space had bearing on measurements.

Or maybe it's something a heckuva lot more obvious...

Also of note is the additional negative pressure seen immediately prior to breaths 2, 4, and especially 6. In the first waveform set, EPR termination occurs so quickly that the transition from expiration to inspiration appears seamless, and being at a sub-therapeutic pressure level at the point of inspiration may be academic. In the second, however, EPR is quite lax in termination and an increased negative inspiratory effort is seen during sub-therapeutic pressure. This is the scenario whereby EPR might create a problem in an unstable airway, and perhaps explain increased AHI in some individuals when the only variable is EPR.
SAG

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Post by Slinky » Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:32 pm

You guys have me confused! KurtR, the Resmed S8 Elite is not an AutoPap. The Auto Appear just means that the Smart Data screens are displayed in the morning if we reset the device when the AutoAppear is turned on.

If the AutoAppear is turned off the Smart Data is displayed in the Results menu only.


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kurtr
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Post by kurtr » Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:42 pm

1. Slinky- Mine is a S8 autoset vantage and can be either auto or straight CPAP. There may be others that cannot???

2. SAG- Thanks for your post. I intrepret you to mean that the factors involved are a. mask leak rate and b. whether or not the EPR "synchs" with your breathing properly as to whether or not it is beneficial or harmful to therapy?
Would a prudent approach be to experiment with different masks and pressure settings to see if AHI improves?

Thanks,
Kurt


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Post by Slinky » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:12 pm

Thanks for clarifying, KurtR. I shouldn't have butted in when its a conversation that's over my head. It was good of you to clarify for me. Thank you.

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kurtr
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Post by kurtr » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:22 pm

Slinky,

No problem my friend, we are all learning here.......

Regards,
Kurt

-SWS
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Post by -SWS » Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:20 pm

SAG wrote:This is the scenario whereby EPR might create a problem in an unstable airway, and perhaps explain increased AHI in some individuals when the only variable is EPR.
The five-million dollar question: To what extent is this pressure-transitional characteristic a simple transitional "nuance", and to what extent will it prove to be a treatment caveat regarding airway patency?

Event-handling (detection and response) is supposedly one extremely salient characteristic distinguishing EPR from traditional BiLevel. I think treatment failure, success, even the extent to which this EPR transitional characteristic may prove problematic, will all hinge on how well or poorly that EPR event handling occurs. I would hypothetically expect flawless EPR event-handling to algorithmically render that "transitional nuance" suspended or non-existent during those pending moments of airway instability. Conversely, I would also expect poor EPR event-handling just may render that same pressure-transitional "nuance" as a potential efficacy caveat in some unknown percentage of cases, manifesting certain phase-related patency characteristics. And, of course, almost all real-world algorithms tend to fall somewhere in the middle, between ideal-case and worst-case treatment scenarios.

SAG, are you of the opinion this pressure-transitional nuance is simply a candidate area of concern to be watched? Or are you of the opinion this pressure-transitional nuance will likely manifest as being problematic in some unknown percentage of patients using EPR? While I don't think I could personally draw that latter conclusion, I would tend to concur with that first one. Nice post. .


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StillAnotherGuest
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And The Survey Says...

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:13 am

-SWS wrote:
SAG wrote:This is the scenario whereby EPR might create a problem in an unstable airway, and perhaps explain increased AHI in some individuals when the only variable is EPR.
The five-million dollar question: To what extent is this pressure-transitional characteristic a simple transitional "nuance", and to what extent will it prove to be a treatment caveat regarding airway patency?
And the buck three-eighty answer is "Got me." I'm working with a sample size of one, and he's normal (at least as far as OSA is concerned) and awake. But I think that we can move a little more from theoretical concerns, and question if EPR is appropriate for an individual or not, especially if there are a bunch of responses like kurtr. Even then, the amount of variables is staggering, I doubt that you could ever account for them all.
-SWS wrote:Event-handling (detection and response) is supposedly one extremely salient characteristic distinguishing EPR from traditional BiLevel. I think treatment failure, success, even the extent to which this EPR transitional characteristic may prove problematic, will all hinge on how well or poorly that EPR event handling occurs. I would hypothetically expect flawless EPR event-handling to algorithmically render that "transitional nuance" suspended or non-existent during those pending moments of airway instability. Conversely, I would also expect poor EPR event-handling just may render that same pressure-transitional "nuance" as a potential efficacy caveat in some unknown percentage of cases, manifesting certain phase-related patency characteristics. And, of course, almost all real-world algorithms tend to fall somewhere in the middle, between ideal-case and worst-case treatment scenarios.
Just to clarify, EPR is not available in Auto Mode, so I don't think much event management per se is really possible. It either works, or a number of variables come into play that changes parameters such that therapy becomes at least mildly unpredictable. BTW, I would have thought that if APAP could be applied in EPR, then these concerns would be academic.
-SWS wrote:SAG, are you of the opinion this pressure-transitional nuance is simply a candidate area of concern to be watched? Or are you of the opinion this pressure-transitional nuance will likely manifest as being problematic in some unknown percentage of patients using EPR? While I don't think I could personally draw that latter conclusion, I would tend to concur with that first one.
Yeah, me too. 2 significant questions I would ask right away are (1) is the S8 behaving like the first waveform set or the second, and (2) what kind of airway instability does the patient have at just below prescribed pressure. If event detection is accurate (another variable) and EPR is a user-defined parameter, one could collect a bunch of data from say a week of EPR=0 vs a week of EPR=3, fixed-pressure CPAP. If there's a difference, then dig into why that is.
SAG

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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.

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Post by -SWS » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:12 am

SAG wrote:Just to clarify, EPR is not available in Auto Mode, so I don't think much event management per se is really possible. It either works, or a number of variables come into play that changes parameters such that therapy becomes at least mildly unpredictable. BTW, I would have thought that if APAP could be applied in EPR, then these concerns would be academic.
Two "event handling" algorithmic modes of operation with Resmed EPR machines as I see it: 1) When in AutoSet mode, "event handling" occurs as driven by the evolved A10 algorithm, and 2) when in BiLevel mode, a separate algorithmic EPR "event handling" operational modality occurs that suspends BiLevel operation based on that modality's event detection criteria.

At this point in analysis/discussion, my vague impression is that EPR's event-handling (not A10's event handling) has received limited and casual observation. In my own way of analyzing, EPR's ability to detect/predict problematic phase-related SDB events, drive's EPR's ability to suspend BiLevel operation----thereby side stepping potential phase-related patency problems. I specifically view EPR's algorithmic ability/inability to sidestep phase-related patency issues in this manner as being a very key issue toward drafting preliminary technical feasibility assessments. At least that's my take! .


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The Horse Is Already Out...

Post by StillAnotherGuest » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:26 am

-SWS wrote:...when in BiLevel mode, a separate algorithmic EPR "event handling" operational modality occurs that suspends BiLevel operation based on that modality's event detection criteria.
Yeah, but that's not "event handling", that's waiting for an event to occur, responding after the event has been allowed to continue for a bit (during which time, untoward additional sequelae (arousals) may occur) but most importantly, immediately returning to the parameters that created the problem, thereby allowing for it to repeat ad infinitum.

To attempt to quantify EPR suspension t, try this experiment at home. Set EPR at 3 cmH2O. Take a few breaths through the mask to get stabilized. Take the mask off after exhalation and occlude the mask (the machine should be in EPR). There's a real good apnea. Now count the seconds until the blower speeds up. That represents suspension of EPR.

Better yet, count the number of breaths you could have taken while waiting for EPR to suspend. If it's 2 or more, then I think you can have a problem.

But I still don't want to discount EPR, it's a very comfortable mode, and a lot of what we're talking about here is theoretical in nature. You'd need PSG to really test this.

Hey RG, road trip!
SAG
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Aromatherapy may help CPAP compliance. Lavender, Mandarin, Chamomile, and Sweet Marjoram aid in relaxation and sleep. Nature's Gift has these and a blend of all four called SleepEase.