cure for M series leaks

DerekB · Post by **DerekB** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:36 am

Did you say ORing? I do not have a M series but I do have experience with ORings. On my pool equipment, every spring I remove all my ORings on the pool filter/couplings and clean and REGREASE so that they will seal. Also my underwater camera ORing requires a film of sealing grease on it to seal properly. ORings have a tendency to stretch (lengthwise) and shrink (diameterwise) over time. Of coarse how fast this happens is related to quality, size, and fit of the ORing. If I do not grease the ORings then I get leaks. My ORings are all under pressure, pool pump for the pool and water pressure to 130 ft. for the underwater camera. Not sure how much pressure is generated in the M Series water tank and if lack of grease would enable a leak. Could be suspect though.

The ORing needs good contact with all surfaces it touches to seal. If there is a spot that is not sealed on the ORing then I can see where a leak could spray out humidified air and produce the water you see inside the chamber AND up the water usage of the tank.

Another question would be: at what pressure does the leak occur? Those of you that have a leak what is your pressure setting. Do those with a pressure of 8 have leaks or is it those with a higher pressures like maybe 12 or more? I can see that if the ORing is having a hard time sealing then a higher pressure could "Burst" through the ORing seal and blow through it.

The purpose of the grease on the ORing is to provide a larger surface to the ORing for contact. I am not saying that everyone should grease their ORings but maybe a test with a film of Lanolin on the ORing would be worth a shot.

Derek

stoverquill · Post by **stoverquill** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:14 am

The chamber on my machine has the date circle on both the top and the bottom pieces with arrows pointing to 9 and 06

A "1" appears on both pieces seperate from the date circle.

One week use, no leaks. Lot's of rain-out, too.

My pressure is low: auto 5-10. Maybe the suggestion before that perhaps the higher pressure is causing the leaks?

Catnapper · Post by **Catnapper** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:15 am

Oops. Maybe it is not an O ring. It is a blue ring that works like a washer or seal of some kind between the top and bottom parts of the humidifier reservoir.

Interesting thought about the pressure. I had higher pressure the night I had the leak, and somewhat lower pressure last night.

Catnapper

munsterlander · Post by **munsterlander** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:31 am

I received my m series pro the first of October. My chamber does not have any numbers on it. I have not had a problem with leaks and I use the supplied hose swivel. That would seem to indicate they are using a different mold now.

rested gal · Post by **rested gal** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:17 am

I think something like this may be what Snoredog uses to connect the main air hose to the humidifier. I use this elbow connector with all my non-M humidifiers/machines:

birdshell · Post by **birdshell** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:18 pm

Snoredog, this is definitely one of your best endeavors (yet)! One can see quite clearly from your well labelled photos what is happening.

I have read a number of posts about the M-series leaks, and quite frankly have held off on buying one because of the leaking problems. I never FULLY understood what was being said by others.

Thanks, Snoredog and other contributors. I believe that those of you contributing to this post will get the exact problem nailed down--Respironics should be VERY thankful.

While they can try to pin down the problem, Respironics does not have the number of users with the experience and wisdom of those on the Forum. They have not made a sale to me, and probably to others, as we have heard that the humidifier leaks in some machines.

Since they have proven themselves to be a good company, Respironics hopefully will listen to well-thought-out anecdotal research.

The defective tanks produced by the manufacturer's #1 machine may be part of the problem, but not all. My guess would be that they might have found one problem, but not looked for any more, in the "Case of the Leaky Humidifier." (apologies to Sir A. C. Doyle)

Thank you all, as I've been in a quandary about what machine to buy. The BEST solution, IMHO, will be too get an M-Series with a NON-leaking humidifier! Now maybe I will be able to do so shortly without fear.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:06 pm

Snoredog, I don't think I was clear when I posted late last night. You and I have the same tank. Mine has the inverted (mirror) 2, as does yours. It seems the "1" in the middle of the mfg code shows which machine made the tank. I don't think we have separate problems. They seem to be one and the same, IMHO. The separate number (2) may be the batch number.

Trina, is there a number in the very center of the date circle? That should tell us which machine manufactured your chamber. If number "1" is there, it would indicate that the machine was repaired before your tank was manufactured in 9-06 (September). Perhaps the number "1" separate or beside the date circle indicates your chamber was from the first batch made after the machine was fixed. I will be very interested in knowing the answer to this question.

Catnapper, you say you love this investigative work. I agree - I love a mystery. I'll have to leave the intricate details of investigating where or what part of the tank is bad to you, Snoredog and others, but I will certainly be following the trail with you.

JohnD and Munsterlander, your info is very helpful. I was told if the tank has no number, it is a good tank. That might indicate that the replacement tanks Respironics made have no number.

Bregory, we are hopeful you will soon be able to give us answers to Snoredog's and my questions directed to you. They will be important to help with a resolution to this mystery.

I hope many others with good and bad tanks for the M Heated Humidifier will hold their tanks up to a mirror and tell us what numbers they see. Everyone who contributes to this thread will contribute to solving the mystery Birdshell has cleverly entitled the "Case of the Leaky Humidifier."

I believe what all of us want to accomplish is to help those who are trying to decide which machine with heated humidifier to purchase as well as to help those who have a leaky chamber. But still -- we can enjoy solving the mystery at the same time.

Regards,

Alisha · Post by **Alisha** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:08 pm

Sorry, guess I got logged out before I finished typing my post.

stoverquill · Post by **stoverquill** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:17 pm

Alisha,
There is definately a straight line in the middle of my date circle but it does not look like a "1". The "1" printed outside the circle looks different...like a "1" with a hat and underlined. The mark in the circle is just a straight line.
But could be a "1"

christinequilts · Post by **christinequilts** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:24 pm

I don't have a M series or anything (VPAP AdaptSV), but have been reading just in case we can convince the sleep doctor to switch my mom to an autoCPAP. If one machine was making bad parts, is there a chance the top could come from the 'good' line & the bottom from the 'bad' line, or vice versa? That could confuse things even more, but it seems like it could happen occasionally, even if it only happened at the DME when they had 2 humidifier containers opened at the same time & mixed them up...and who knows what happens in manufacturing & packing.

Snoredog · Post by **Snoredog** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:23 pm

Last night's testing update:

1. I taped the HandiWipe to the top of the tank and carefully filled the tank to the Full mark and inserted it in the housing.
2. I set the Humidifier to setting #3, after about 15-minutes using my Soyala mask, I was getting way too much moisture, so I turned off the machine and checked for leaks. Here is what I found:

This is the end of the M series tank, you can clearly see a water droplet dripping off on the tank lock:

Here is how much water formed in the housing in only 15 minutes:

So I moped up the water inside the housing, took the tank to the sink and dumped out the water. I examined the O-ring, it appeared to be fine, wasn't rolled over deformed or anything, if I had to say there was anything wrong with it, it would have to be it is too small in diameter. In any case, I got some vaseline on my finger and went all the way around the O-ring to lube it up a bit. I then put the tank back together, slid the lock to the locked position and refilled the tank, but this time I made sure the water level stayed below the O-ring level shown in prior pictures. I used it the rest of the night and NOT a single drop leaked. There was NO water on the HandiWipe.

My Conclusion - Shuttle O-rings: My original tank pressure test when the tank was COLD failed to identify the leaky O-ring.

One possible reason why it failed was I tested the tank COLD with COLD water. This tank injection mold appears to be designed backwards. The top lid slips inside the bottom tank. As the tank warms up from the heating element the bottom half of the tank gets warmer than the top and will expand. The top lid doesn't expand as much as the bottom because there is no real heat transfer. So you have the bottom of the tank expanding due to heat and the top lid staying the same size. This tank will never seal unless you reverse the tank-lid design or use a O-ring that is much larger that allows for more expansion.

Suggestion: Don't fill the tank ABOVE the green O-Ring, forget the tank side markings for fill levels. Keep the water level below that O-Ring level and it will be fine. This may also explain why it leaks one night and not the other, it is with a full tank that it leaks the most.

Maximum FILL level to prevent leaking:

Catnapper · Post by **Catnapper** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:36 pm

I don't know about that Snoredog. I have never ever filled the tank to the fill line. I always use less. Generally speaking, I do not have leaks from the machine. It has leaked. Just not very often.

Do I need to put Vaseline on the O-ring? The tank is very hard to open.

Catnapper

DreamStalker · Post by **DreamStalker** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:51 pm

Great investigative science Snoredog. Your conclusion seems very sound and logical in addition to being well supported with your evidence.

- r

Snoredog · Post by **Snoredog** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:56 pm

Catnapper wrote:I don't know about that Snoredog. I have never ever filled the tank to the fill line. I always use less. Generally speaking, I do not have leaks from the machine. It has leaked. Just not very often.

Do I need to put Vaseline on the O-ring? The tank is very hard to open.

Catnapper

You might check how level your night stand is front to back. The Full fill marks are when you hold the tank vertically, there is Min. and Max marks. If you fill to the Max. mark water level will be above the O-ring shown. You can fill to below that line on the counter then when you insert the tank in the housing if the night stand is not pefectly level or slightly tilting back the water can get to the O-ring level then "under pressure" and heat, the pressure can force the water out past the O-ring. They should just glue the tank together, there is no reason to take the tank apart for cleaning. If something starts growing in it put a little diluted bleach in it for a few hours then rinse out.

The F&P tanks don't come apart for cleaning and they seem fine.

birdshell · Post by **birdshell** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:08 pm

Snoredog wrote: They should just glue the tank together, there is no reason to take the tank apart for cleaning. If something starts growing in it put a little diluted bleach in it for a few hours then rinse out.

The F&P tanks don't come apart for cleaning and they seem fine.

The ResMed Humidaire 3i humidifier tank does not come apart, either. They seem to be made in 2 parts, but the maximum fill line is definitely below that seam.

The tank cleans quite well, much to my surprise. So maybe, F&P are not the only ones to have a better idea?

Wouldn't it be nice if there were an aftermarket tank that did everything one could want in a humidifier tank?

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