To all the good people on this forum, if you know what can help please reply

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
sleepyzzzz
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To all the good people on this forum, if you know what can help please reply

Post by sleepyzzzz » Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:06 pm

I am going to write a detailed post about my journey of almost 8 months with SBD and 3 months with xPAP machines, what i learned and my conclusion and lack of solution to breath normal while sleeping:


History:

- 2/2018: neck injury, nerve pain for 3 months in back of neck.
- 05/2018: GERD, and then LPR. + PPI treatment for 2 month.
- 08/2018: sudden awakenings at night, without obvious cause.
- 11/2018: sleep study showing : 61% sleep efficency
23 arousals/hr
13 arousals/r apnea/hypopnea
6.5 RERAs/hr
REM & NREM AHI: 17/hr
REM AHI: 43/hr


- 12/2109: resmed airsense 10 APAP: 45 days trial, titration protocol used, highly fragmented sleep, low AHIs, a lot of RERA's , no rest or quality sleep from it.
- 01/2019: ENT laryngoscopy diagnosis of : dysfunctional vocal chords. (maybe the reason why i have SBD) but not sure if that is the reason
- 01/15/2019 to present: Aircurve 10 bilevel machine with dreamwear nasal mask and mouth taping.
These are my findings from the Aircurve after following the Resmed titration protocol, advice, and many trials and errors:


1- EPAP min: i can not go past 4.4, if i do, my fragmented sleep is worse, i start waking up every 90mns to 2 hrs.
2- PS: has to be between 3-6 .
3- IPAP max: has to be equal to the (EPAP + PS) e.g: if EPAP is 4 and PS is 4, IPAP max is 8.


If i follow these steps above i might stay asleep for the first 4-5 hrs of the night, which helps me not feel like a zombie next day IF i could sleep few hours for the remaining hours.


The next half of the night:
1- RERAs are a lot more frequent.
2- I wake up every dream, many times hearing and feeling the RERA ( my chest automatically inflating to get air right before my brain is thrown out of sleep)
3- for being able to fall asleep in the second part of the night, PS has to be over 7.2 ( any less, and each time i drift to sleep, a RERA wakes me up).
4- if i manually adjust the PS to 7.2, i will still wake up between dreams, but without feeling the RERA.


Following the above protocol has the highest success rate of me not feeling like a zombie through the day.


I tried to combat RERAs or staying asleep for the whole night by :
1- increasing min EPAP while keeping PS relative between (4-7) : anytime EPAP increase above 4.4 my brain is awakened from the start of sleep.
2- keeping EPAP at 4, increasing PS above 7: i get aerophagia, and start burping air, more air trying to come out of my mouth ( i tape my mouth).


Notes:
1- All my AHIs are low, no matter what i do, it has nothing to do with how i feel in the morning, i am attaching couple recent screenshots if you just want to see some sleepyhead data.
2- my flow limit range between max of 0.5 to 0.9 there is no rule why it is more or less.
3- Through the day i breath normal, but i feel need to swallow my saliva, and when i do, my throat feel like there is stuck mucus in it, which i have been told that is my vocal cords closing. i have been given breathing exercises to try to train my cords to stay open, but i don't see any difference so far ( 3 weeks ).
4- i do not some or drink alcohol or drink coffee or eat chocolate or use drugs.
5- i do not take any medicine.
6- i am male, 6 ft, 209 lbs, healthy.
7- before this i did not have a history of insomnia or depression and slept like a baby.


Questions:
1- what is obstructing my breathing at night ? is it the vocal cords closing or something else or a combination? how can i find out that ? sleep study did not show the cause, is there an image scanning or a test that i can do to know what is obstructing my breathing ?
2- which specialist can i see ( live in nj/nyc area ).
3- is there anything else i can do with the bi-level machine or anything else to try to keep me breathing at night?
4- medication ?


Thanks for taking the time to read all of this.


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Okie bipap
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Re: To all the good people on this forum, if you know what can help please reply

Post by Okie bipap » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:14 pm

Try setting PS = 4, MINEPAP = 7 and MAXIPAP = 20 to see where the machine wants to go. Right now you are restricting what the machine can do.

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palerider
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Re: To all the good people on this forum, if you know what can help please reply

Post by palerider » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:20 pm

Okie bipap wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:14 pm
Try setting PS = 4, MINEPAP = 7 and MAXIPAP = 20 to see where the machine wants to go. Right now you are restricting what the machine can do.
Actually, preventing it from doing anything at all to help.

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sleepyzzzz
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Re: To all the good people on this forum, if you know what can help please reply

Post by sleepyzzzz » Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:36 pm

thanks for replying, as i said i tried that as well, i can't sleep with EPAP minimum more than 4.4. so setting Epap to 7+ does not work.

sleepyzzzz
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Re: To all the good people on this forum, if you know what can help please reply

Post by sleepyzzzz » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:38 pm

Thank you all for the replies, i been studying some more and trying to analyze my data from all the nights of restless sleep.
Here are the findings i got, with attached screenshots to correct me. Also to advice what titration i should do.

Findings:
----------
1- i have a REM predominant apnea, that matches the flow limit intervals of 90mns- 2 hrs. IT matches my sleep study(first page) saying my REM apnea is 42/hr while my NREm+REM is 17/hr.
2- my apnea is worse supine, so i try to sleep on my side.
3- I was thinking i was waking up with RERAs each time i dream, but probably, the OSA is too high for my pressure to handle, so the airflow limit is not 100%, but maybe less than 50% and that is why i get RERAs and have a fragmented sleep of 2-3 hours that become shorter and more intense after 5 am.
4- i tried following the advice of setting a narrow range with constant pressure, it did not resolve RERM apnea. ( see graphs 1 - 8).
5- i tried letting the machine handle it and i am still unsuccessful to find the right settings ( see graphs 9-11). Based on these, i would like to ask you :
Should i increase EPAP or PS ? it seems that my 95% EPAP is from 5.7 to 6.7 but i do not know is that because the machine is trying to increase IPAP and because the PS is constant it is raising the EPAP instead ? you can see in my graphs (5 - 9) in increased the PS, while mainting EPAP constant, and it did not resolve REM apnea or RERAs.

Questions:
-------------
1- Based on my data, do i increase EPAP ( like to 6), leave PS at 4 ( or less) and leave IPAP to max 15 ?
2- Do i increase both EPAP and PS ? and leave the machine on auto for max IPAP ?
3- I have read the higher PS could cause RERAs( not just CAs) that is why it is advised to lower EPR in APAP to 1, but in the titration proptocol for bilevel, it was said to start with PS of

Notes:
--------
1- I started using neck collar ( in the last graph) do not see /feel a difference.
2- i can not tolerate high pressure, i get aerophagia ( higher than 12-13 IPAP).
3- I went to yet another sleep doctor and he will do a DISE ( drug induced sleep endoscopy) to see what is really happening when i sleep. i have found an interesting doctor note on interpreting the results of DISE in choosing the type of therapy and would like your opinion, i will share my DISE results later when i get them:

Dr. Michael Schedler : "First assess history of patient. If he/she complaints about SPBA (supine position based apnea) i.e. cannot ly on back and breath normally, feeling a choking sensation, when lying supine, sometimes impossibility to find sleep in supine position.

Then, please perform somnoscopy in Propofol induced sleep with and without NCPAP and look if you note an aSGO (adult supraglottic obstruction, abstract: schedler, supraglottic obstruction) regarding base of tongue and/or epiglottis. In case of aSGO avoid APAP, since the ventilationpressure will steadily increase with rising upper airway resistance. Settle then for a lower range Bilevel therapy, which can be titrated in Propofol sleep, sneaking a thin endoscope under the mask, while setting the pressure level so that no obstruction (e.g. bending down epiglottis by airflow) is induced. Or refer to airway surgeon, who can address the problem surgically. I have personally performed about 520 laser epiglottis partial resections (EPR), close to 300 HPPs (Hyoidpharyngoplasty) and 3 Supraglottoplasties; simultaneous Laser EPR/HPP procedure".


4- The doctor told me to try an oral device if i am not getting the sleep quality from the machine, but i read here that many people had adverse effects from oral device because it messes up with your bite, so i want to give the Bilevel another chance, that is why i am posting here to get your opinion how can i get rid of the REM apneas.

Thank you.

Graphs:
-----------
Graph 1: (EPAP 4, PS 1, IPAP 5), sleep quality : poor

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Graph 2: (EPAP 4, PS 3, IPAP 7), sleep quality : poor - medium

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Graph 3 : (EPAP 4, PS 4, IPAP 8) : sleep quality : poor - medium

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Graph 5: ( EPAP 4, PS 5, IPAP max 9), sleep quality : poor - medium
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GRAPH 6: (EPAP 4, PS 6, IPAP 10) sleep quality : poor - medium

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GRAPH 7: (EPAP 4, PS 7, IPAP 11): , sleep quality : poor - medium

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GRAPH 8: (EPAP 6, PS 6, IPAP 12) , sleep quality : poor - medium

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GRAPH 9: (EPAP 4.6, PS 7.2, IPAP 15 ) , sleep quality : medium . Note using high or v high trigger would eliminate all these CAs :

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GRAPH 10(EPAP 5, PS 4, IPAP 15) , sleep quailty : medium

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GRAPH 11 (EPAP 4, PS 4, IPAP 15) , sleep quality : poor to medium

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Muse-Inc
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Re: To all the good people on this forum, if you know what can help please reply

Post by Muse-Inc » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:07 pm

sleepyzzzz wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:06 pm
...Through the day i breath normal, but i feel need to swallow my saliva, and when i do, my throat feel like there is stuck mucus in it, which i have been told that is my vocal cords closing. i have been given breathing exercises to try to train my cords to stay open, but i don't see any difference so far ( 3 weeks )...is it the vocal cords closing or something else or a combination? how can i find out that ? sleep study did not show the cause, is there an image scanning or a test that i can do to know what is obstructing my breathing ?...
I just bought one of these to see if if helps me. I am a shallow breather and recently had a few episodes of heartburn which has been rare for me. https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1.

On their website is a lot more info including these articles:
https://www.pnmedical.com/therapeutic-u ... eep-apnea/
https://www.pnmedical.com/therapeutic-u ... eep-apnea/
There are cautions listed in their FAQ https://www.pnmedical.com/faq/
ResMed S9 range 9.8-17, RespCare Hybrid FFM
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koy
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Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:04 pm

Re: To all the good people on this forum, if you know what can help please reply

Post by koy » Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:51 pm

Muse-Inc wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:07 pm
sleepyzzzz wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:06 pm
...Through the day i breath normal, but i feel need to swallow my saliva, and when i do, my throat feel like there is stuck mucus in it, which i have been told that is my vocal cords closing. i have been given breathing exercises to try to train my cords to stay open, but i don't see any difference so far ( 3 weeks )...is it the vocal cords closing or something else or a combination? how can i find out that ? sleep study did not show the cause, is there an image scanning or a test that i can do to know what is obstructing my breathing ?...
I just bought one of these to see if if helps me. I am a shallow breather and recently had a few episodes of heartburn which has been rare for me. https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1.

On their website is a lot more info including these articles:
https://www.pnmedical.com/therapeutic-u ... eep-apnea/
https://www.pnmedical.com/therapeutic-u ... eep-apnea/
There are cautions listed in their FAQ https://www.pnmedical.com/faq/
Thank you , I bought one now too to see if it helps! Do you feel any improvement ?

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Muse-Inc
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Re: To all the good people on this forum, if you know what can help please reply

Post by Muse-Inc » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:03 pm

koy wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:51 pm
...Do you feel any improvement ?
I have a cold and haven't been able to use it.
ResMed S9 range 9.8-17, RespCare Hybrid FFM
Never, never, never, never say never.

yearning4zs
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Re: To all the good people on this forum, if you know what can help please reply

Post by yearning4zs » Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:04 pm

I'll be interested to hear what the results of the DISE are. I am in similar situation -- I seem to have rem and positionally related apnea. A DISE found that I have isolated epiglottis collapse. From what I've seen online this is often treated with surgery. Epiglottidectomy, epiglottoplexy etc. Please do post your DISE results and treatment recommendations.

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chunkyfrog
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Re: To all the good people on this forum, if you know what can help please reply

Post by chunkyfrog » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:04 pm

" . . . SBD"??
Not Sleep Disordered Breathing--maybe Silent But Deadly?
Rolled right off the lilypad, and into the drink. :oops:
Thanks for the giggle.

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dogsarelife
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Re: To all the good people on this forum, if you know what can help please reply

Post by dogsarelife » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:19 pm

To the original poster:
There is someone called Pugsy who has an AHI 5 times worse in REM than NREM. Mine is 4 times worse in REM than NREM. Pugsy might come along and ask if you are on any other medications, like pain meds for example, or antidepressants or anything else that might affect sleep.

This may or may not be of interest to you and it may have things you wish to discuss with your medical professionals, since there is definitely an association between neck injury and sleep issues.

Reduced sleep efficiency in cervical spinal cord injury; association with abolished night time melatonin secretion
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2882209/

If I were you, I might try to find a doctor who is aware of the correlation between neck injury and sleep disordered breathing - could be a pulmonologist, could be a rehabilitative specialist, could be a neurologist, so that they can refer you to the right literature or perhaps other specialists you might need to see.

I'm not sure what to tell you about aerophagia. you can search and there are a lot of posts on it. Someone named okiebipap told me his wife needed to slowly increase pressure and that after a year she was able to handle her prescription setting. That has sort of been the case for me - that I have needed to stay at a pressure for a while, get used to it, and then after a while I have been able to increase my epap and ipap closer to the pressure I need to sleep better but I also messed with things that apparently I wasn't supposed to mess with on my machine, which is similar but not the same as yours (if you are registered and click on my name you can see my history and the discussion around it).

Also - it's hard for me to make sense of the sleepyhead charts you posted, but it looks like your sleep quality goes up to medium with more pressure support? Have you noticed that as well? it's hard to draw conclusions until you stick with settings for a more extended amount of time and it looks like you have tried a lot of different Epap, pressure support, and ipap settings in an effort to sleep well, which I understand.

My eye might go there because I tend to like more pressure support than the average person on these boards and maybe you do too for reasons unknown? but if you try more PS and you hate it or end up with a bunch of centrals, you are of course free to change it.

Might be time to pick an epap, pressure support, and ipap from a medium night and just stick with it for a while?

I wish you luck with all of this and hope someone else can advise you more on pressure stuff.

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dogsarelife
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Re: To all the good people on this forum, if you know what can help please reply

Post by dogsarelife » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:12 am

sleepyzzzz wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:06 pm
I am going to write a detailed post about my journey of almost 8 months with SBD and 3 months with xPAP machines, what i learned and my conclusion and lack of solution to breath normal while sleeping:


History:

- 2/2018: neck injury, nerve pain for 3 months in back of neck.
- 05/2018: GERD, and then LPR. + PPI treatment for 2 month.
- 08/2018: sudden awakenings at night, without obvious cause.
- 11/2018: sleep study showing : 61% sleep efficency
23 arousals/hr
13 arousals/r apnea/hypopnea
6.5 RERAs/hr
REM & NREM AHI: 17/hr
REM AHI: 43/hr

I saw on another post that raisedfist recommended this guy and said that he emailed with this doctor. This doctor has written several papers on spinal cord issues and non-invasive ventilation, so may be worth a shot for you to try and see him in your specific case

https://njms-web.njms.rutgers.edu/profi ... mid=bachjr

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koy
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Re: To all the good people on this forum, if you know what can help please reply

Post by koy » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:52 pm

i have not done the DISE yet, but i have been reading more about UARS and it looks like most of my symptoms are UARS related. ( low AHI, cold hands/feet, extreme fatigue through the day, arousals all night with RERAs, light sleep, narrow jaw and narrow throat, crowded teeth and elevated tongue )
now did i have UARS before and i did not know ? did UARS turn into OSA ? i do not know. my sleep report show 17 AHI/hr and 42 in REM but also show 6 RERAS/hr
and 130 arousals in 6 hrs sleep.

i am starting to consider surgery as every day i am sleepy and can not do anything ! i cant work and cant study and cant enjoy the blue sky nothing..

i wonder if anyone has benefited from bi level! it seems that i can not. and if i raise the EPAP to more than 7 i start getting aerophagia. so i don't know if a high pressure would fix my UARS. simply bc i can not tolerate hogh pressure.

it's been very hard 7 months. i hope to find relief soon. if you have suggestions about bi level i am listening..