Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by ChicagoGranny » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:39 am

ravenous28 wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:22 am
He also said he has no knowledge of ever hearing anyone wanting to ever buy their own cpap online
He is extremely ignorant or lying.

ravenous28 wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:22 am
sleepyhead and other apps used for analyzing sleep results aren't trustworthy as having a support from a real dr or dme
He's partially correct. Sleepyhead, in the hands of a knowledgeable user, is more trustworthy than any doctor or DME.

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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by chunkyfrog » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:07 pm

" . . . support from a real dr or dme."
Too often this is nothing more than a wish.
While waiting for "Doctor Charming," one could die--easily.
Better to DIY, and ignore the lies from control freaks.

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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by ravenous28 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:03 pm

chunkyfrog wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:07 pm
" . . . support from a real dr or dme."
Too often this is nothing more than a wish.
While waiting for "Doctor Charming," one could die--easily.
Better to DIY, and ignore the lies from control freaks.
That’s what so ironic about all this.

Use a mouthpiece to treat osa, no one cares about checking for compliance if it’s working to treat osa. All one is asked how they feel.

Use a cpap, you are forced to be check for compliance and follow up with your dr and there’s software to back it up whether it works or not.

The way insurance works with the mouthpiece is you can’t even qualify to get one unless you first fail the cpap and you are still forced to go through the insurance. You can’t just walk in expecting a mouthpiece.

Both devices trying treat the same condition. There’s def bias towards those who go the mouthpiece route. You get treated like an outsider if you ever want to come back and you get the scare tactics about how it’s dangerous to do your own cpap meanwhile no one gives a $hit how dangerous it can be for someone who wasn’t properly getting treated all these years on a mouthpiece. I’m pissed because I wasted 4000 dollars on 2 mouthpieces in the last 7 yrs, not treated for osa only to find out I have to pay more money now to a dr only to bring the topic up then get referred again for another 3600 charge in lab test. Yeah I got burnt. I think I’ll just be going rouge and tell my new dr this is what im doing. I do blame myself to not seeing what a terrible decision I made getting off the pap. Maybe eBay and used cpaps isn’t looking so bad...

Maybe this will help anyone out there thinking they want to go the mouthpiece route. You may end up where I’m at. And no it’s not going to be easy to just come back whenever you want through a doctor.

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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by palerider » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:04 pm

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:18 am
OfftoNeverNeverland wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:21 pm
it is clear that selling Class II medical equipment (CPAP) without being licensed to issue a prescription for such Class II equipment is a federal criminal offense.
Do you have a clue what you wrote? If you do, you might want to edit that sentence.
I'm pretty sure that no clues were available for that whole post.

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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by palerider » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:06 pm

ravenous28 wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:22 am
I was also told it’s a bad idea from the sleep lab guy to go it on my own and that sleepyhead and other apps used for analyzing sleep results aren't trustworthy as having a support from a real dr or dme. He also said he has no knowledge of ever hearing anyone wanting to ever buy their own cpap online, it’s not the norm and most dr won’t support that yet alone give a prescription because you want to go rouge.
Please tell me you don't believe that bullshit.... though I'd bet you do, any takers?
ravenous28 wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:22 am
To make matters worse, I can’t even go to the sleep lab place to see the sleep specialist dr because they don’t take my insurance due to a upmc/highmark split here in Pittsburgh causing all the people to find new drs on the highmark side.
This is just an elaborate trolling job, isn't it?

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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by bwexler » Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:42 pm

I was also told it’s a bad idea from the sleep lab guy to go it on my own and that sleepyhead and other apps used for analyzing sleep results aren't trustworthy as having a support from a real dr or dme. He also said he has no knowledge of ever hearing anyone wanting to ever buy their own cpap online, it’s not the norm and most dr won’t support that yet alone give a prescription because you want to go rouge.

There are thousands of folks on this forum who prove the above statements are not true.
It's a bad idea to not pay the sleep lab guy, the sleep specialist, the PCP, the DME etc, because it is more important for all of them to make a living, than it is for you to treat your OSA.

You need to learn to take charge of your life and health, or allow the system to beat you to death. LITERALLY!!!

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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by OfftoNeverNeverland » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:44 pm

Dear Chicago Granny and Palerider:

I have read many of your posts and really respect your expertise with PAP therapy and especially how to figure out how to manage this gawdawful new lifestyle. I suffer greatly with OA and use a PAP myself. You are to be commended for helping PAP users for years all over this blog and thank goodness for people like you. Please consider that there are some of us out there who may know things related to CPAP issues (not its proper use like you) and such things may NOT be directly in your wheelhouse. I am not a troll (uncalled for insult btw). I would not want you or anyone else to run afoul of the law (federal or otherwise). As I mentioned, the government is highly unlikely to ever take notice of one-off kind of sales of PAP equipment that people sell to one another. It is just like possessing one marijuana joint (in a still prohibited State) rather than moving bales of it, as such activities escapes federal or state law enforcement notice. The couple in the indictment are alleged to have stolen and trafficked in many PAP devices on Craig's List and likely that is how they were noticed and likely an undercover agent purchased such a PAP device in cash from them as evidence of a crime(s) (The "buy." You can watch old Starsky and Hutch reruns on Hulu to see how "buys" are done). It would be safe to assume that the FDA Criminal Enforcement Division and other interested agencies read these blogs too and the same way as they read Craig's List--don't you think?

Instead of Chicago Granny's request that I edit my prior positing, of which I politely decline, I offer you the first 4 pages below of the now public Grand Jury federal indictment in Atlanta of the couple who allegedly stole CPAP/BiPAP/Ventilator equipment, posted them for sale on Craig's List (that is an internet type of buy/sell bulletin board that can be used in various States over boundaries to buy/sell things, viz., the Interstate Commerce aspect of the Indictment for additional federal jurisdiction support). The couple allegedly met and sold same for cash to buyers (the public). The couple were allegedly not licensed to prescribe medical equipment in the FDA Class II realm, i.e., PAP therapy equipment. They allegedly were not authorized to take (steal) pre-retail PAP devices from their DME employer in that part of Georgia and sell them to the public either.

They are now charged (that is not speculation, they are CHARGED and indicted) with well over 10 counts of federal felony crimes, some of which are selling in interstate commerce ("trafficking") Class II devices (PAPs) without being authorized to issue prescriptions for Class II devices (PAPs). They are also charged with selling stolen "pre-retail" Class II devices in interstate commerce (the stolen goods aspect of this matter). They are also charged with working together with knowledge in a conspiracy (serves to pin the same allegations on each defendant). The docket reflects through granted motion, the trial (criminal jury trial) was continued (that means postponed or delayed) until later this year (2019) and both defendants are facing these charges together via an alleged conspiracy. Motions to sever the two defendants through separate trials was apparently denied.

As these criminal trials are open to the public, you are free to attend the trial and certainly are free to obtain the pleadings and documents filed in this case. When you show up in person or hire a document retrieval courier look for case number 1:2018cr00018 in the criminal docket of the Atlanta federal courthouse. You can get copies (copy fees) of documents not under seal. The now PUBLIC grand Jury indictment is pasted below up to page 4 (I did not want to paste all 22 pages--boilerplate). Please read the whole thing before you start responding/posting/insulting. As I mentioned, small potato folks who merely sell a PAP or two to the public are unlikely to get noticed ("burned") by LEOs but I think it is clear that there are more than enough federal criminal statutes on the books that proscribe (that means prohibit or make unlawful) selling any Class II device without authority to write prescriptions for same if somehow you got noticed by LEOs (the acronym "LEOs" means the "heat" or "dah' man". "Burned" means arrested by "set up" or otherwise. See Starsky & Hutch reruns on Hulu). However, if you really want legal advice, hire and speak to an attorney and discuss the alleged facts and law in the indictment in view of any such activities in which you may someday plan to engage in the future. This posting is not trolling (Palerider) but is meant to be a serious contribution to the topics that concern all of us.

______________________________________

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF GEORGIA ATLANTA DIVISION

V,


KIMVERLEE ADERHOLD ERIC E. RAMEY, JR.

No. 1:2018cr00018

Criminal Indictment

THE GRAND JURY CHARGES THAT:

Count One

INTRODUCTION

1. The FDA is the federal agency responsible for protecting the health and safety of the American public by ensuring, among other things, that medical devices are safe and effective for their intended uses and bear labeling that contains true and accurate information. FDA's responsibilities include regulating the manufacture and distribution of medical devices shipped or received in interstate commerce, as well as the labeling of such medical devices. FDA carries out its responsibilities by enforcing the FDCA and other pertinent laws and regulations.

2. The FDCA defines a medical device as, among other things, "an instrument, apparatus, implement, machine, contrivance, implant, in vitro reagent, or other similar or related article, including any component, part, or accessory, which is . . . intended for use in the diagnosis of disease or other conditions, or in the cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease, in man
or other animals, or intended to affect the structure or function of the body of man or other animals, and which does not achieve its primary intended purposes through chemical action within or on the body of man or other animals and which is not dependent upon being metabolized for the achievement of its primary intended purposes." 21 U.S.C. §§321(h)(2), 321(h)(3).

3. A prescription device is a device which, because of its potential for harmful effects, methods of use, or the collateral measures necessary to its use, is not safe for use except under the supervision of a practitioner licensed by law to direct the use of such device. 21 C.F.R. § 801.109.

4. Under the FDCA, devices are deemed to be "misbranded" unless their labeling bears adequate directions for use. 21 U.S.C. § 352(f)(1). Under regulations promulgated by the FDA, "adequate directions for use" is defined as directions under which a layman can safely use a drug or device for its intended uses. 21 C.F.R. § 801.5.

5. Prescription devices by their very nature are safe for use only under the supervision of a licensed practitioner. See 21 C.F.R. § 801.109. Adequate directions for use, therefore, cannot be written for prescription devices, and prescription devices are per se misbranded under 21 U.S.C. § 352(f)(1). To allow for the lawful movement of prescription devices in interstate commerce, FDA regulations exempt prescription devices from the adequate directions for use requirement, but only if certain conditions are met. See 21 C.F.R. §§ 201.100 (drugs) and 801.109 (devices).

6. Two such conditions require that the device is: (a) in the possession of a person, or his agents or employees, regularly and lawfully engaged in the manufacture, transportation, storage, or wholesale or retail distribution of such device; and (b) is to be sold only to or on the prescription or other order of such practitioner for use in the course of his professional practice. See 21 C.F.R. § 801.109(a)(l)(i) and (2).

7. Under the FDCA, the doing of any act to a device, after the device or its components have moved in interstate commerce and while such device is held for sale, which results in the device being misbranded, is prohibited. 21 U.S.C, § 331(k).

DEVICES AT ISSUE

8. Continuous positive airway pressure (CPap) and Bi-level positive airway pressure (BiPap) machines are devices that deliver air through a tube into a mask that fits over the nose. While CPap machines generally deliver a single air pressure, BiPap machines deliver two-levels of air pressure - an inhale pressure and an exhale pressure. CPap and BiPap machines are both used to treat sleep apnea. BiPap machines are often also used to treat conditions other than sleep apnea, such as certain pulmonary conditions like chronic pulmonary obstructive disorder (COPD) or cardiac conditions like congestive heart failure. CPap and BiPap machines are both prescription devices under the FDCA.

9. Portable oxygen concentrators (POC) are portable medical respiratory therapy devices that deliver concentrated oxygen to a respiratory patient. POC takes ambient air and filters out everything except for the oxygen. POCs are prescription devices under the FDCA.

The Conspiracy and Its Objects

10. Beginning on or before September 15, 2016, and continuing until on or about September 5, 2017, in the Northern District of Georgia and elsewhere, defendants, KIMVERLEE ADERHOLD and ERIC E. RAMEY, JR., did knowingly and willfully combine, conspire, confederate, agree, and have a tacit understanding with each other to commit the following offenses:

a. In and using means and facilities of interstate commerce, to steal, and by fraud and deception obtain, and knowingly and unlawfully take, carry away, and conceal pre-retail medical products, that is CPap, BiPap, and POC devices, in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 670(a)(1); and

b. In and using means and facilities of interstate commerce, knowingly to possess, transport, and traffic in pre-retail medical products, that is CPap, BiPap, and POC devices, that were involved in a violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 670(a)(1), in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 670(a)(3).

ravenous28
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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by ravenous28 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:58 pm

palerider wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:06 pm
ravenous28 wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:22 am
I was also told it’s a bad idea from the sleep lab guy to go it on my own and that sleepyhead and other apps used for analyzing sleep results aren't trustworthy as having a support from a real dr or dme. He also said he has no knowledge of ever hearing anyone wanting to ever buy their own cpap online, it’s not the norm and most dr won’t support that yet alone give a prescription because you want to go rouge.
Please tell me you don't believe that bullshit.... though I'd bet you do, any takers?
ravenous28 wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:22 am
To make matters worse, I can’t even go to the sleep lab place to see the sleep specialist dr because they don’t take my insurance due to a upmc/highmark split here in Pittsburgh causing all the people to find new drs on the highmark side.
This is just an elaborate trolling job, isn't it?
Of course I don’t believe that. I’m just telling you what the attitude is in the medical field. No one out there in the medical field who is in the sleep business is going advocate anyone using sleepyhead. Why would they when they want you to keep paying for follow up appointments.

As far as my situation goes... how about let’s trade. Give me your cpap stuff and you can have my mouthpiece. Let’s see how you feel when I tell you tough luck getting it back unless you go for another sleep study and get approved by a dr.

I’m not trolling I’m just asking people on the forums for advice. Just because I didn't want to go completely rouge like you and buy all my stuff used online doesn’t mean I’m against you. I think it’s obvious my posts annoy you. Sorry if you feel that way. Not everyone is in the same situation.

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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by zonker » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:07 pm

palerider wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:08 pm
ravenous28 wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:54 pm
Otherwise I’m stuck having go undergo another in-lab polysomnogram with PAP titration or finding another dr who will agree with me that I need to be back on cpap and give me my prescription.
Oh for heavens sake, just do this:
http://axgsleepdiagnostics.com/product/ ... nattended/
and quit beating the dead horse to dust, reconstituting it, and beating it to dust again, over and over.
wow! this may be even cheaper than my original at home sleep test my doc gave me.
people say i'm self absorbed.
but that's enough about them.
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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by turbo » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:13 pm

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:18 am
OfftoNeverNeverland wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:21 pm
it is clear that selling Class II medical equipment (CPAP) without being licensed to issue a prescription for such Class II equipment is a federal criminal offense.
Do you have a clue what you wrote? If you do, you might want to edit that sentence.
Selling machines and issuing prescriptions are two different things.

Doctor who writes the prescription, usually can't sell the machine (conflict of interest)
And the DME's who are licensed to sell, don't have to be licensed to issue a prescription (that's Docs job)
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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by zonker » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:13 pm

palerider wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 2:04 pm
ChicagoGranny wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:18 am
OfftoNeverNeverland wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:21 pm
it is clear that selling Class II medical equipment (CPAP) without being licensed to issue a prescription for such Class II equipment is a federal criminal offense.
Do you have a clue what you wrote? If you do, you might want to edit that sentence.
I'm pretty sure that no clues were available for that whole post.
best foed and forgotten, but that just may be my "juvenile" sense of humor talking.
people say i'm self absorbed.
but that's enough about them.
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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by palerider » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:31 pm

ravenous28 wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:58 pm
No one out there in the medical field who is in the sleep business is going advocate anyone using sleepyhead.
Like so many things you think and say, this is NOT TRUE EITHER.

There are sleep technicians that advocate using sleepyhead and educating yourself, hell, one of them has a popular website, maybe you've heard of him, thelankylefty27? over at freecpapadvice.com? There are others.

Chunkyfrog's *DOCTOR* was *thrilled* when she showed him sleepyhead, and the data that it offers.

There are good doctors, and sleep techs out there, they may not be the norm, but your statement above is wrong.
ravenous28 wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:58 pm
Why would they when they want you to keep paying for follow up appointments.
because some care a little more about the patient's well, instead of just wanting to line their pockets.
ravenous28 wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:58 pm
As far as my situation goes... how about let’s trade. Give me your cpap stuff and you can have my mouthpiece. Let’s see how you feel when I tell you tough luck getting it back unless you go for another sleep study and get approved by a dr.
Wouldn't be a very fair trade, since my 'cpap stuff' includes multiple bilevel machines, and a laboratory machine (vpap tx, look it up).

Now, if you want to pay me a fair rate for one of my machines, that'll be fine,

I'll just turn around and buy another one, off craigslist, or LSAT, or Greyghost4, just like I did when I got all the ones I've got.
ravenous28 wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:58 pm
I’m not trolling I’m just asking people on the forums for advice.
That's a laugh. You've got 71 posts, there's 84 replies IN THIS THREAD... they've told you *the same thing over and over and over* and you keep beating the same dead horse.

You've been given advice, you just keep circling the same hole. Frankly, it's starting to get really old. I'm known not to suffer fools gladly, so my getting snippy with you doesn't mean much... but when other people start chiming in, it's really time to sit back and take a long hard look AT YOURSELF.
ravenous28 wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:58 pm
Just because I didn't want to go completely rouge like you and buy all my stuff used online doesn’t mean I’m against you. I think it’s obvious my posts annoy you. Sorry if you feel that way. Not everyone is in the same situation.
I told you how you could get a reasonably priced test AT HOME, and get a doctors consult AND A PRESCRIPTION... and what did you do?

You blew me off.

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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by ChicagoGranny » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:38 pm

OfftoNeverNeverland wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:44 pm
I suffer greatly with OA and use a PAP myself.
Is your CPAP controlling it well?

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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by zonker » Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:10 pm

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:38 pm
OfftoNeverNeverland wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:44 pm
I suffer greatly with OA and use a PAP myself.
Is your CPAP controlling it well?
iswydt.jpeg
people say i'm self absorbed.
but that's enough about them.
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Re: Getting official medical help with osa and sp02 levels?

Post by palerider » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:07 pm

OfftoNeverNeverland wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:44 pm
Dear Chicago Granny and Palerider:
I'll let granny respond to what you directed at her... I'll just point out that she's not wrong..

I find your response to be rather childish, explaining the meanings of words, etc.
OfftoNeverNeverland wrote:
Thu Feb 28, 2019 3:44 pm
This posting is not trolling (Palerider) but is meant to be a serious contribution to the topics that concern all of us.
As far as I know, neither of us called you a troll. The troll remark was directed to the OP who seems incapable of accepting all the advice that's been given, beating a dead horse, and well... it makes one wonder, "is this person just trolling the forum for amusement".

You might want to actually pay attention to what's said to whom before getting your panties all in a bunch.

What I said to you was that the article you linked originally said that they were indicted for *THEFT*, not for selling medical equipment as you alleged.

You allege that the indictment is about them selling machines, and possibly, ONE WORD in what you linked this time may lend a little credence to that allegation. the word "traffic" care to define that for us?

In all your condescending explanation of commonly known things "Craig's List (that is an internet type of buy/sell bulletin board ...blahblahblah}" (if you want to use words, at least get them right, it's "craigslist" right there on the web page) you *CONTINUE* to misrepresent legalities.

You've said, multiple times, "The couple were allegedly not licensed to prescribe medical equipment in the FDA Class II realm, i.e., PAP therapy equipment. " are you confusing the term "prescribe" with "dispense"? *DOCTORS* prescribe, DMEs dispense. No DME has a license to prescribe a CPAP, that's why one has to go to a doctor.

Get your own house in order before yammering at others. And, if you're going to post offtopic stuff in a thread, at least try and be accurate about what you're saying, and don't be a total asshat when people point out your inaccuracies.

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Last edited by palerider on Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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