CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

General Discussion on any topic relating to CPAP and/or Sleep Apnea.
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ChicagoGranny
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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by ChicagoGranny » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:14 am

HoseCrusher wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:28 pm
CPAP allowed me to eliminate O2 desaturations and that resulted in higher quality sleep. Vitamin and mineral targeted supplementation has allowed me to gain control over my heart rhythms to the point where my cardiologist has taken me off of all heart medications.
You've got confounding variables thar, pardner. You can't know that vits and mins did anything for your heart. It may have been solely CPAP.

My dear Gramps was diagnosed and treated for heart arrhythmias before starting CPAP. After CPAP, it quickly went away. No vits or mins.

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ChicagoGranny
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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by ChicagoGranny » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:15 am

Goofproof wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:39 pm
Then there are data points that point the wrong way. Jim
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That's the kind he likes to chase.

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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by chunkyfrog » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:34 am

Funny, but surgeons often want you to STOP all vitamins, minerals, and supplements before surgery.
Also, none of these things are covered by insurance--or are exempt from sales taxes.
All this evidence points to an alarming conclusion--strong is the belief that
supplements are not only medically unnecessary, but can be harmful at times.
BUT I will still go back to my pile of pretty pills after surgery . . .

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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by jnk... » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:47 am

chunkyfrog wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:34 am
. . . pretty pills . . .
You mean there are pills that might help my looks?
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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by JMB73 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:40 am

The question that I now have is what are you going to do? Do you go through life with crappy sleep and expect that is the "norm" for you? Or do you try the next step, track your sleep and find a solution?
I appreciate you caring. Well, for me, I did a home sleep test, which reported mild apnea, and so I am going to try CPAP. That's my next step. After that?.... nothing. There's pretty much nothing left for me to try. Which is mildly terrifying. So, then I guess I just need to try to deal with it, like many people who have incurable disabilities. It's horrible, I won't lie.
In my case, it works but I am looking at pain.
What do you mean by "it"? Have you raised your D to between 60-80 and your sleep has improved because of it? Because that's the "it" that that doctor is mainly talking about, and which I tried.
I think I understand why it worked for me, but the bigger question is why didn't it work for you...?
Again, not sure what you mean by "it". Let's be clear here: the crux of her theory/contention is that if you raise your D levels to 60-80 your sleep will improve. That is the proposal. That is the "it" on the table. So, to answer your question: the reason it didn't work for me is that it is likely bunk. No offense to you when I say that, by the way. I am not at all against herbal medicine and so-called "alternative" medicine, if it works. For example: many, many years ago, my sinuses were killing me. One nostril totally plugged, it was terrible. Went to "the doctor," who said I did not have a sinus infection, and (of course) gave me a prescription for an anti-histamine, which I did not fill, having already tried over the counter antihistamines, which did nothing. I don't know why, but I went to an herbal shop, and the woman who worked there listened my situation, walked over to the wall, picked out a bottle of something called "ALJ" by a company called Nature's Sunshine. She said take so and so many of these before bed, when I wake up, and throughout day, and that it will help flush my system of mucus and whatnot. I went home, started taking these capsules (a mix of herbs), and literally a few hours later, my nose unclogged and the pain went away. It was amazing. And from that moment on, I have recognized the potential power and efficacy of herbal medicine. I have used that product over the years when having sinus issues, and it has always worked, without fail.

That said, I have tried pretty much every herbal remedy under the sun to get better sleep, and none of them have helped at all. That does not mean that they are bunk, it simply means that they are not the thing to help my problem...whatever it is, and which I do feel might remain a mystery, as a sleep study cannot find it (I don't have the other things sleep studies can detect), and I'm not going to gamble $1,700 on an in lab study that, as I said, is not going to give me any useful data that I don't already have, or can try treating myself anyway. So then I'm left with speculation/theory/experimentation, which I have been doing for my entire adult life, to no effect. This is why I was excited when I came across that theory about D. And I was disappointed when I achieved the stated goal of above 60, and my sleep had not improved even one iota.

Anyway, I'm going to try CPAP, but since nothing has worked so far, I'm honestly not very hopeful, though of course I have to have some hope that it might help. I'm just not looking forward to my sleep being disturbed BY the CPAP, which will be pretty crappy, since I already wake up so exhausted. But I can't think of what else to do or try.

So, may I ask, what was your D level when you started her protocol? How much D are you taking now? When do you plan to test again?

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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by JMB73 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:46 am

Grace~~~ wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:28 pm
JMB73 wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:08 pm
and taking some vitamins (D is a hormone, FYI, not a vitamin)
And also, is everyone running these tests through their doctor or are folks ordering the blood tests themselves?
Just curious.

:?:
Fortunately, yes, a person can get pretty much any blood test they want without having to go through the patronizing system of getting permission from a doctor. There are several companies online that offer the service. Prices vary, so shop around. Just google "order blood tests online," and you'll see many companies to choose from. It's not expensive (depending on which test), and easy. You just go to the lab (same lab as docs send people to), they draw the blood, and a couple days later they email your results (or a link to them).

As for D being a hormone, it's something I've seen a lot in my personal research. You can google that, too.

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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by palerider » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:08 pm

jnk... wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:47 am
chunkyfrog wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:34 am
. . . pretty pills . . .
You mean there are pills that might help my looks?
You didn't think that lovely green complexion was completely natural, did you?

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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by Goofproof » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:23 pm

chunkyfrog wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:34 am
Funny, but surgeons often want you to STOP all vitamins, minerals, and supplements before surgery.
Also, none of these things are covered by insurance--or are exempt from sales taxes.
All this evidence points to an alarming conclusion--strong is the belief that
supplements are not only medically unnecessary, but can be harmful at times.
BUT I will still go back to my pile of pretty pills after surgery . . .
And we live on. More than two piles, they will fall off my tray otherwise. :lol: Jim
Use data to optimize your xPAP treatment!

"The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures the disease." Voltaire

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jnk...
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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by jnk... » Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:28 pm

My understanding is that D ain't an active hormone until the liver and kidneys later make some of it so.
What is vitamin D?

There are two types of vitamin D: vitamin D2 and vitamin D3. Vitamin D2 is generally found in fortified foods, such as milk and some other dairy products, cereals and orange juice. The few natural sources of vitamin D include shitake mushrooms and fatty fish, such as salmon, sardines and mackerel. Vitamin D3 is the product of sunshine. Ultraviolet light from the sun converts 7-dehydrocholesterol in the skin into previtamin D3. The previtamin D3 gets turned into vitamin D3.

But both forms of vitamin D need to be activated to work. Vitamin D2 and D3 get hydroxylated by a P450 enzyme in the liver to be turned into 25-hydroxyvitamin D. This prohormone binds to a protein in the blood called the serum vitamin D-binding protein. Clasped to its binding partner, the prohormone then travels through the blood circulation system for about two weeks. When the bound prohormone gets to the kidneys, an enzyme called CYP27B1 hydroxylase in the proximal tubular epithelial cells turns it into the active hormone 1α,25-dihydroxyvitamin D. -- http://www.asbmb.org/asbmbtoday/201406/ ... /VitaminD/
The larger issue is that supplementation may not change things much, since any extra will get eliminated before it is a hormone, assuming of course that a person is healthy enough not to be poisoned by higher-than-needed doses.
The production of the active vitamin-D hormone is tightly regulated. Popping more vitamin D supplements may not actually affect your level of active vitamin D. The prohormone may just wind up leaving your body through urine. -- Same source as above.
Doses higher than the RDA are sometimes used to treat medical problems such as vitamin D deficiency, but these are given only under the care of a doctor for a specified time frame. Blood levels should be monitored while someone is taking high doses of vitamin D. As always, talk to your doctor before taking vitamin and mineral supplements. -- https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-life ... q-20058108
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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by HoseCrusher » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:26 pm

ChicagoGranny wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:14 am
HoseCrusher wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:28 pm
CPAP allowed me to eliminate O2 desaturations and that resulted in higher quality sleep. Vitamin and mineral targeted supplementation has allowed me to gain control over my heart rhythms to the point where my cardiologist has taken me off of all heart medications.
You've got confounding variables thar, pardner. You can't know that vits and mins did anything for your heart. It may have been solely CPAP.

My dear Gramps was diagnosed and treated for heart arrhythmias before starting CPAP. After CPAP, it quickly went away. No vits or mins.
ChicagoGranny, My journey has been different that Gramps. I experienced afib and went to the doctor. He started me on drugs and scheduled a sleep study. The sleep study suggested a CPAP would help with my sleeping breathing. I started CPAP. Unfortunately it did nothing for my afib.

Back to the doctor. How about an ablation? OK, tried that, didn't work.

Back to the doctor again. This time he tested my D levels and found I was low. Started supplementing with D. It took me several months to get up to what he thought was a decent level which was 70 - 100. Once I got there, I continue to monitor D levels every 3 months. Unfortunately again I was unable to stabilize in normal sinus rhythm.

At this point I was told there was nothing else medicine could do for me and I should just get used to being in afib part of the time.

This prompted me to explore "food as medicine" and also look into various supplements. Adding all of this together I ended up in normal sinus rhythm and off of all medical drugs.

I am envious of Gramps. It sounds like he had it easy...

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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by HoseCrusher » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:48 pm

JMB73, I am glad to hear you had a sleep study and are willing to try CPAP. It is my hope that it totally takes care of all your problems.

If it doesn't take care of everything, I believe there are other things that can help, but this is a process and first things first.

By "it" I mean the combination of D levels and B levels. Basically Dr. Gominak's idea.

Your are misunderstanding her proposal. You FIRST stabilize you D levels. Once they are stable you then work with B levels to find the sweet spot that provides the most restful and restorative sleep. It is not just about D. If you listen to the talks you will discover that other influences include the neurological switches in the brain stem that allow the healing process to proceed during sleep, in addition you have to pay attention to your particular circadian rhythm, diet seems to play an important part, stress, and the list seems to go on a bit more.

This is a "package" deal. Take any one thing out of context and you may end up with, as you call it, bunk.

When you start CPAP, please pay attention to your data. Many here can help you dial your therapy in so that you have the best possible chance of a fantastic outcome.

My D levels have been in the 70 - 100 range for about 8 years now. It took me about a year to get to, and stabilize at, that level. I test every 3 months to keep track.

My diet includes foods that have D in them. In addition I supplement with 4000 IU of D3 during the winter and drop that to 2000 IU during the summer. I also make it a point to expose some skin to the sun when I can.

Good luck with your journey. If there is anything I can help with, just let me know. You are not alone in this.

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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by HoseCrusher » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:02 pm

jnk... I think the LARGEST issue is to find out if you are deficient. That requires a test. You can use whatever "target" you feel comfortable with, but if you are deficient your health will suffer.

For example if you test and find your level is something like 5, you may want to play your guitar in the park in short sleeves with your coat and hat off... :)

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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by JMB73 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:19 pm

HoseCrusher wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:48 pm
JMB73, I am glad to hear you had a sleep study and are willing to try CPAP. It is my hope that it totally takes care of all your problems.

If it doesn't take care of everything, I believe there are other things that can help, but this is a process and first things first.

By "it" I mean the combination of D levels and B levels. Basically Dr. Gominak's idea.

Your are misunderstanding her proposal. You FIRST stabilize you D levels. Once they are stable you then work with B levels to find the sweet spot that provides the most restful and restorative sleep. It is not just about D. If you listen to the talks you will discover that other influences include the neurological switches in the brain stem that allow the healing process to proceed during sleep, in addition you have to pay attention to your particular circadian rhythm, diet seems to play an important part, stress, and the list seems to go on a bit more.

This is a "package" deal. Take any one thing out of context and you may end up with, as you call it, bunk.

When you start CPAP, please pay attention to your data. Many here can help you dial your therapy in so that you have the best possible chance of a fantastic outcome.

My D levels have been in the 70 - 100 range for about 8 years now. It took me about a year to get to, and stabilize at, that level. I test every 3 months to keep track.

My diet includes foods that have D in them. In addition I supplement with 4000 IU of D3 during the winter and drop that to 2000 IU during the summer. I also make it a point to expose some skin to the sun when I can.

Good luck with your journey. If there is anything I can help with, just let me know. You are not alone in this.
Hi again. Thanks for clarifying. Yeah...I hear what you're saying. It's all very complicated, our bodies especially. Thanks for your support. I am doing this pretty much alone, so the support of the people on this forum means a great deal to me.

My machine comes in two days, so I will start experimenting with it soon.

So, I'm curious...do you have good sleep with CPAP? Did you notice your sleep improve once you got your D to 70 or so?

For me, I really didn't like taking just under 6,000 a day to get it to rise. I still have ringing in my ears from it, but it might be getting better now that I reduced that to just under 3,000. I have been taking B vitamins for years, and don't want to, or feel the need to, mega dose for the time she recommends (again, to people who likely have not already been supplementing Bs...again, this gets complicated). Either way, I raised my D enough for me to see that it is not going to help my sleep, so I'll just keep taking 2-3,000 a day and that's that.

It would be nice if CPAP helped me, but at this point, given how much I have tried over the years, I have pretty much no hope of ever getting good, restful, restorative sleep. It annoys me sometimes to think about how easy it is for so many people, how much they take it for granted. Grr... Argh... ;)

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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by HoseCrusher » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:00 pm

I have a non-typical view of things, so take this with at least a grain, or perhaps many grains of salt... :)

I "practice" good sleep habits. When I go to sleep I expect to wake up fully refreshed and ready to greet the day. I travel globally and am very active. This is a great way to screw up sleep and I have many days when I wake up short of my goal of being fully refreshed. However in general I wake up refreshed.

I can't say I have felt much different since starting CPAP, but my wife loves the fact that I am breathing much more regular. She would listen to me snore and then stop breathing and wonder if I would just die, or start breathing again. Now she is sleeping much better...

I have been trying to track my sleep using a Fitbit for years now. I also frequently look at overnight oximeter readings. CPAP has eliminated the oxygen desaturations. My average amount of sleep from Fitbit is around 4 and a half hours a night. Since paying close attention to my B intake that has increased to about 5 hours and 10 minutes. The problem is that I am lacking details and that is why I am looking into the Orua ring. They supply more details and if requested will actually supply the raw data for your own analysis.

Don't loose hope. There are a lot of resources here and together I am confident we can help you improve.

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Re: CPAP is a patch, not a cure...

Post by jnk... » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:48 am

HoseCrusher wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:02 pm
. . . I think the LARGEST issue is to find out if you are deficient.
Or not. But thanks.
. . . Routine checks of vitamin D levels are not currently recommended. . . . Five to 15 minutes of sun exposure two to three times a week . . . may be all that is needed. . . . Too much vitamin D can build up in the body if used incorrectly. -- https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/a ... deficiency
But your approach seems to me to be within spec:
HoseCrusher wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:02 pm
I supplement with 4000 IU of D3 during the winter and drop that to 2000 IU during the summer.
9 - 70 years old -- Recommended Dietary Allowance (IU/day): 600 -- Upper Level Intake (IU/day): 4,000

Over 70 years old -- Recommended Dietary Allowance (IU/day): 800 -- Upper Level Intake (IU/day): 4,000

--https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/a ... deficiency
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