When you don't always feel those "good" numbers

[Pugsy]

Well, the last good look at my lumbar area was probably 17 years ago with an MRI. At the time there was only the herniation on the one disk. It hasn't gotten any worse over the years (subjectively), so I have had no reason to have it looked at again.
Besides, getting the VA to do an MRI is like pulling teeth apparently - they haven't even agreed to do one for my very recent neck issue - even though I have asked for one.

At your age..with your history and now the neck stuff...you need a thorough work up. I will bet my last dollar that things have changed and not for the better. It's part of simply getting older. Besides there's more problems than just herniated discs. I don't have any disc herniation issues because I have zero disc space between T10 and all the other vertebrae down to L4...zip...nadda...bone sitting on bone. Bone spurs out the wazoo. Plus I developed scoliosis...lateral displacement of the vertebral column.

And yes, I know how difficult it is to get real quality care from the VA. It totally sucks.

Sleeping on a board and taking Flexeril isn't what people with no back issues have to do to sleep. Is it all of your problem....probably not but it's very possible that it could be a substantial part of your problem. It needs to be either ruled in or out though.

[MaxINTJ]

At your age..with your history and now the neck stuff...you need a thorough work up. I will bet my last dollar that things have changed and not for the better. It's part of simply getting older.

You mean we're not like wine or cheese?

[Esme]

Thank you for your story. It makes me realize how much I have to be grateful for. I had severe arthritis in one hip and finally did something about it (hip replacement) when I was no longer able to sleep because of the pain, even though I was still relatively young. Can't imagine what it would be like to have that kind of pain all over, in joints that can't be replaced. I started having chronic nighttime headaches a few years ago when my old dog (at 15 yo) would wake me up every single night to go out. I was sure the headaches were due to sleep interruption. After she died the headaches continued and led me to the sleep doc and sleep study. So, I can be grateful to her for leading to my diagnosis of sleep apnea and the treatment that is going to get me back on track to a headache-free life. I'm not "feeling the good numbers" quite yet, but I can see improvement and forward movement.

[Pugsy]

You mean we're not like wine or cheese?

Yeah, unfortunately we are more like the bottle of something left in the fridge so long that if the jar didn't have a label on it we wouldn't have a clue what was in it.

It sucks getting old and falling apart but the alternative isn't very attractive either.

FWIW...I agree with you about the cpap/mask and the neck issues but only so far as to say that you most likely had prior unknown asymptomatic issues before now and the sleeping in a weird position made a potentially bad situation worse. If just something as little as a weird sleeping (weird as in not your normal position) caused that much of a problem....what else is going on with your neck. You really need that MRI so you know about the other vertebrae and potential issues just so you are aware. Forewarned is forearmed.

I know you don't like doctors...neither do I and I worked with them for more years than I can count. Still doesn't make me want to go see them except when I have no choice. There comes a time in our lives where we have to do things we don't like and don't want to do if we want to have any quality of life at all. Those cold hard facts of life are pretty friggin ugly.

[WearyOne]

Getting good numbers...that's the easy part...feeling them is a whole different story.

Yep, this sums it up 100 percent!

Pugsy, I am so sorry for all you've gone through, and continue to go through. Thank you for sharing your story (and for all the help you give us all in our journeys for better sleep)!

[Okie bipap]

I finally broke down and had back surgery two years ago. I had severe arthritis in the spine and was starting to get scoliosis in the lumbar area. The doctor told my wife I would be in surgery about an hour and a half. I was in surgery over three hours. After the surgery, he told my wife he knew my back was a mess, but didn't think it was as bad as it was. He said if he had know how bad it was, he probably would have stayed in bed that day. I'm glad he didn't. He cleaned up a lot of things while he was in there including the scoliosis problem. The back pain has been much less and is now tolerable on most days unless I do too much, then it lets me know about it. I am still living with the hip pain which prevents me from sleeping on my side. Even on my back, the machine is controlling my apnea, so I'm happy with it.

[WearyOne]

I finally broke down and had back surgery two years ago. I had severe arthritis in the spine and was starting to get scoliosis in the lumbar area. The doctor told my wife I would be in surgery about an hour and a half. I was in surgery over three hours. After the surgery, he told my wife he knew my back was a mess, but didn't think it was as bad as it was. He said if he had know how bad it was, he probably would have stayed in bed that day. I'm glad he didn't. He cleaned up a lot of things while he was in there including the scoliosis problem. The back pain has been much less and is now tolerable on most days unless I do too much, then it lets me know about it. I am still living with the hip pain which prevents me from sleeping on my side. Even on my back, the machine is controlling my apnea, so I'm happy with it.

One of my brothers--who's also on CPAP--had lumbar back surgery a few months ago...five hours long. He had so many issues after surgery while still in the hospital--unrelated to his back--that he almost didn't make it home. I'm not really sure what all he had done. Did you have to wear some kind of shell anytime you were not in bed? My SIL calls it a "turtle shell." That thing is giving him fits, but other than that he's finally getting around and has started PT or OT, not sure which. (I do wish we weren't so far away from each other.)

I know some people come out of back surgery worse or no better than before the surgery. I'm glad the surgery helped and hope you continue to reap the benefits.

[Okie bipap]

I had a laminectomy performed on the L3, L4, and L5 vertabra. I was in the hospital for three days and was up walking the morning after my surgery. I wore a back brace similar to a weight lifter's belt for a few weeks after the surgery. I no longer have pain in that area, but still have pain from arthritis in other portions of the lower back and hip areas. I have been told I will eventually need to have at least one if not both hips replaced.

[Holden4th]

ahhh.....pain, an inevitable part of growing older and I can empathise with everyone who has posted on this thread. I have ankylosing spondylitis in my lumbar spine but fortunately Mobic controls that. The right elbow pain, right knee pain are also part of my life but thankfully I usually manage to get a full nights sleep. If I didn't have the Mobic then I think that my sleep would be very shitty so I can understand where Pugsy is coming from.

[esel]

Thanks Pugsy you are just amazing ... and pain ...

If you wake up and feel no pain, it is likely that you are dead ! Pain and Wisdom are part of aging

I have "tennis elbow", both arms, chronic epicondylitis since 10 years. Had surgery on one side, cleaning out the cristal like deposition that accumulate at sites of inflammation. It worked, no pain for half a year, it then came back. If I sleep with straight arms I wake up with lots of pain. Often need the other arm to move the one in pain. Lucky if only one was straight

At your age..with your history and now the neck stuff...you need a thorough work up. I will bet my last dollar that things have changed and not for the better. It's part of simply getting older.

You mean we're not like wine or cheese?

Wine, the grape plant has been cloned since a long time. One of the oldest grape variety is over 2000 years old. That tels us that 2000 years ago they already knew when making wine you better clone, cut and replant the grape variety, than cross and plant the seed.




lucky it is not my back, it is my mother in law's. She is Thai was visiting and complained about pain in her joins, potential arthritis. Well she has no serious arthritis (took X-ray from hands and feet) but no one knew what the heck has been fixed in her back. She said she went to the hospital with some back pain but had no idea what they did to her. She still has back pain.

[Pugsy]

lucky it is not my back, it is my mother in law's. She said she went to the hospital with some back pain but had no idea what they did to her. She still has back pain

She's one tough lady there.
She has compression of the vertebral bodies (compression fractures either from trauma or maybe osteoporosis) and looks like they used some sort of stabilizing plate because the spine was wanting to shift laterally (scoliosis). That's how come the disc space is uneven.
If she hadn't had the surgery I suspect things would have gotten much worse over time.
Unless she has had a history of some sort of significant trauma...and being Thai and likely small and petite...my best guess would be osteoporosis at work.

There also appears to be maybe an old fracture of the coccyx along with some arthritis. This could have happened during childbirth. It's the least of her problems though.

SI joints look to be in decent shape. Hard to tell from the flat on view because SI joints aren't flat.

It's no wonder her back still hurts but I am betting it would have hurt a lot more if she didn't have the surgery.
Her back is/was really f....d up.

[Pugsy]

A quick update on status after the SI injections this past Monday...so day 5 if you count Monday.

I am definitely sleeping more soundly. Number of remembered awakenings greatly reduced.. Feeling the good numbers for sure.
I didn't change my nightly meds. I plan to but not just yet. Wanting the only variable right now to be the joint injections and the pain relief.

Just as I expected...with less awakenings even with less hours (like 6 night before last and barely 7 last night) I am feeling much more energetic during the day. The arousals were killing my sleep quality.

I am actually now experiencing the "miracle" that effective cpap therapy can bring. It wasn't the cpap's fault that I didn't have it until now though.
It did the best it could but it can't fix problems unrelated to sleep apnea.

Hot damn...sure wish I had done this sooner.

[WearyOne]

A quick update on status after the SI injections this past Monday...so day 5 if you count Monday.

I am definitely sleeping more soundly. Number of remembered awakenings greatly reduced.. Feeling the good numbers for sure.
I didn't change my nightly meds. I plan to but not just yet. Wanting the only variable right now to be the joint injections and the pain relief.

Just as I expected...with less awakenings even with less hours (like 6 night before last and barely 7 last night) I am feeling much more energetic during the day. The arousals were killing my sleep quality.

I am actually now experiencing the "miracle" that effective cpap therapy can bring. It wasn't the cpap's fault that I didn't have it until now though.
It did the best it could but it can't fix problems unrelated to sleep apnea.

Hot damn...sure wish I had done this sooner.

YAY! So glad the injections are working and that your sleep is so much improved!

[Pugsy]

Just a quick update.
It's been a week since I had the procedure done for the SI joint issues.
CPAP therapy continues to be good like it has been for years...still doing the AirSense 10 AutoSet for Her experiment in the special auto mode for her.

Doing quite well...definitely sleeping better with the only real difference being the injections.
Still taking my usual pre bedtime pain meds but I plain to slowly reduce and phase them out to see what happens.
Sleeping better definitely has impacted how I feel during the day.
Number of wake ups during the night to move and change position have been reduced significantly.
I am not pain free but then I don't expect to be. I have other issues with my back besides just the SI joints.
The pain level is much reduced though and for that I am extremely thankful.

Reducing the pain has greatly improved my sleep quality and thereby improved how I feel during the day.
Still not quite getting the hours of sleep I would really like to get but that from some things out of my control at the present. Even with 6 hours though...I feel 100% better than 7 or 8 hours of highly fragmented sleep.

Pain isn't the only thing out there that can and will mess with sleep quality...so if you aren't feeling the good numbers...start looking for other culprits if you feel like your sleep quality isn't what you want it to be. There's a long list of potential culprits totally unrelated to sleep apnea.

[Bertha de Blues]

Pugsy, I'm so glad to hear you're feeling better. I wish you a smooth, steady improvement.