advice please from all you long timers!

[andy5805]

Hi there

Bipap working well for me but getting generally annoyed by nasal pillows - they fall out, they injure my nose and I'm always trying to adjust them because I sleep on my side and what invariably happens is this moves the mask and the things then start annoying me. It's a good mask but I want to experiment now I've got the whole compliance thing handled (nasal pillows or not!)

My spec is below but I definitely need a full face mask, as I totally love mouth breathing, it's the cause of so many hours of lost productivity, my body is against me on this one, I can't change it. What happens is I nose breathe till I get to sleep and then the mouth decides it wants in the second I fall asleep- then ferocious snoring wakes me up the instant I fall asleep. To this day even with Bipap this tends to wake me up a few times before sleep is achieved and on bad nights it can still wipe me out for the night. Ideally, I'd also like to move away from nasal pillows as my nose keeps getting injured and they keep un sealing themselves and waking me up ( the pillow has become the apnea ). More than all of that, I need a mask that is friendly to side sleeping. In my years of untreated apnea I trained myself to sleep on my side and the nasal pillow mask seems to insist I sleep on my back or malfunction, I just can't train myself out of that, nor should I. The pressure settings that work so well on my side are not enough on my back

looking for full face mask that
- supports side sleeping and turning in sleep
- preferably not nasal pillows
- Is durable and doesn't cost the earth - I'm broke after Christmas and buying the machine itself

Any suggestions/ideas?

Thanks
Andy

[Jay Aitchsee]

Andy, it does sound as if you need a full face mask.
The two that have worked best for me (an active side sleeper) are the ResMed Mirage Quattro, $176 and the F&P Simplus, $104 (prices from cpap.com).
Of the two, the Simplus has some advantages. 1. It is cheaper. 2. You can change sizes by buying a different cushion (about $40) rather than buying a whole new mask as required by the Quattro. 3. As the name implies, the Simplus is really simple.
Results, for me, between the two have been similar, but I find the Simplus slightly more comfortable.
I've tried a lot of masks, nasal, hybrid, and full face and these two are the best for me.
Now, you must realize that all the foregoing means nothing to you. The only way to tell whether a mask will work for you is to try it.
Good luck in your search,
J

[Janknitz]

I'm a side sleeper and I use the Quattro. If you look in "Taming the Mirage Quattro" below, you'll see some of my tricks--I sleep primarily on my right side, so the straps are more loose on that side and tight on the other side. I use one of those "orthopedic" memory foam pillows with a "ditch" in the middle, and hang my mask off the end.

I have to admit I still have a LOT of leaks. If I wake up with a leak I can generally snuggle my face into the pillow to stop it without coming fully awake.

Lately I've been having some hip pain and can no longer lie on my right side all night. Getting the mask not to leak on my back is VERY difficult. I have to crank down on the lower straps, and I use a C-shaped pillow stuffed with some kind of husks (CRS at the moment) under my chin to keep my neck somewhat extended so the mask doesn't gap.

I tried an anti-leak strap and that was not good for me--caused tooth pain. But YMMV.

Despite the above, I LOVE my Quattro (now, after many battles!). I have a padacheek liner and it's like snuggling into a soft pillow. And despite its tendency to leak, it does work for me.

[hyperlexis]

Hi there

Bipap working well for me but getting generally annoyed by nasal pillows - they fall out, they injure my nose and I'm always trying to adjust them because I sleep on my side and what invariably happens is this moves the mask and the things then start annoying me. It's a good mask but I want to experiment now I've got the whole compliance thing handled (nasal pillows or not!)

My spec is below but I definitely need a full face mask, as I totally love mouth breathing, it's the cause of so many hours of lost productivity, my body is against me on this one, I can't change it. What happens is I nose breathe till I get to sleep and then the mouth decides it wants in the second I fall asleep- then ferocious snoring wakes me up the instant I fall asleep. To this day even with Bipap this tends to wake me up a few times before sleep is achieved and on bad nights it can still wipe me out for the night. Ideally, I'd also like to move away from nasal pillows as my nose keeps getting injured and they keep un sealing themselves and waking me up ( the pillow has become the apnea ). More than all of that, I need a mask that is friendly to side sleeping. In my years of untreated apnea I trained myself to sleep on my side and the nasal pillow mask seems to insist I sleep on my back or malfunction, I just can't train myself out of that, nor should I. The pressure settings that work so well on my side are not enough on my back

looking for full face mask that
- supports side sleeping and turning in sleep
- preferably not nasal pillows
- Is durable and doesn't cost the earth - I'm broke after Christmas and buying the machine itself

Any suggestions/ideas?

Thanks
Andy

The most "durable" mask I have tried hands down has been the Hans Rudolph V2 which is one solid piece of surgical silicone. It can last well over 6-mo in my experience, and while it fits tight, it stays firmly planted even with movement, or side or stomach sleep. The vent is a tad noisy however and its a bit bulky. But at least no forehead brace.

The old Resmed Quattro is also a great mask and works ok for side sleep in my experience, plus it has a super quiet vent. It has an extremely comfortable cushion that I have had almost no leak problems with. It's bulky, ugly, and has a large forehead brace, however. The new Quattro Air is much slimmer and does better in that respect. The old Quattro FX is also a nice option, has no forehead brace, but takes some getting used to while sleeping so as to not dislodge the cushion and cause a leak. It, like almost all masks, can be tamed however. Plus it's small, comfortable, with a very quiet vent, and is super easy to clean.

The new PR Amara Gel is also a great new mask, very slim design so much better for side sleeping. Very comfortable cushion, excellent quality headgear, and quiet vent and is a great, less expensive option than the Resmed Quattros.

[Sir NoddinOff]

Ah, welcome my friend to the wilderness of FFMs. I tolerate my newish ResMed Quattro FX but I've found it is hard to keep the leaks minimal. I now adjust it tighter than I would like, mostly because that 'float on your face' concept doesn't seem to work for me, (tho the floating concept did work great on my old Wisp <sigh>). I tried every possible loose strapping permutation for a week and a half... it was one of the most horrible weeks of my sleeping life. I used new cushions, new headgear, Lansinoh, shaved every night, ad nausea. Nothing worked. BTW, I have a totally average face structure. I've also tried several other FFMs and they didn't seem much different, but admittedly I do use high therapy pressures.

Anyway, my Quattro FX is now pretty tight while using a Padacheek liner and frame wraps to help ease the discomfort, and it does seem to be working at an acceptable level. There are some early morning leaks but I am making progress on that.

Oh yeah, one last observation: If, during the night, I do close my mouth/lips or somehow manage to seal my tongue to the roof of my mouth, I seem to get leaks starting up small and amplifying to a sharp whistle, that is, until I open my mouth or drop my tongue back down. In the next few weeks, I'm really hoping to re-train my brain to keep my throat airway open.

[deerslayer]

Hi there

Bipap working well for me but getting generally annoyed by nasal pillows - they fall out, they injure my nose and I'm always trying to adjust them because I sleep on my side and what invariably happens is this moves the mask and the things then start annoying me. It's a good mask but I want to experiment now I've got the whole compliance thing handled (nasal pillows or not!)

My spec is below but I definitely need a full face mask, as I totally love mouth breathing, it's the cause of so many hours of lost productivity, my body is against me on this one, I can't change it. What happens is I nose breathe till I get to sleep and then the mouth decides it wants in the second I fall asleep- then ferocious snoring wakes me up the instant I fall asleep. To this day even with Bipap this tends to wake me up a few times before sleep is achieved and on bad nights it can still wipe me out for the night. Ideally, I'd also like to move away from nasal pillows as my nose keeps getting injured and they keep un sealing themselves and waking me up ( the pillow has become the apnea ). More than all of that, I need a mask that is friendly to side sleeping. In my years of untreated apnea I trained myself to sleep on my side and the nasal pillow mask seems to insist I sleep on my back or malfunction, I just can't train myself out of that, nor should I. The pressure settings that work so well on my side are not enough on my back

looking for full face mask that
- supports side sleeping and turning in sleep
- preferably not nasal pillows
- Is durable and doesn't cost the earth - I'm broke after Christmas and buying the machine itself

Any suggestions/ideas?

Thanks
Andy

Andy,
What are your pressure settings ?
Are you on auto ?
Personally , I have not been able to tolerate the full face gear. I flip flop at times because of RA.
With leaks on auto your pressure tries to compensate, inturn causing arrousals.
You said not to mention nasal pillows so will not. Just saying there are ways to make them work. & yes like many others I have searched for that holy grail of ff masks & ended up frustrated besides the $$$.
Good luck & hang in there brother

[RandyJ]

I have the Mirage Quattro and grew to like it, though now I only use it rarely. If I were buying a new full face mask today, I'd definitely look at the Quattro Air - low profile, light on the face and mainly only 2 pieces (frame & cushion).

[star444]

I am not a "long timer" but decided to share my experience anyway...

I started with the Wisp nasal mask but quickly discovered that, even using a chin strap, I couldn't stop the mouth breathing.

Next I tried the Quattro FX full face mask with okay results, but I didn't love it.

Just a few days later I switched to the SleepWeaver Anew full face mask and I love it. (Well... "love" may be a strong word since it is difficult love an alien stuck to your face each night!) Because the SleepWeaver is made of cloth instead of hard plastic, it is a dream solution for a side-sleeper. Many people complain that they can't stop the leaks on the SleepWeaver but I found that if I avoid the temptation to over-tighten the straps I don't have any problems. (You can find an excellent video review on YouTube by TheLankyLefty where he discusses the SleepWeaver Anew and offers tips to getting the best seal.)

SleepWeaver offers a 30-day money back guarantee. Also, if you purchase a mask at our sponsor, cpap.com, they offer "Return Insurance" on their masks. For some masks (such as the Quattro FX) the return insurance is free; but for many other masks the return insurance is available at a cost. (For example, the return insurance for the Simplus costs an additional $23.) Either way, if you are unfamiliar with the masks, it seems like the insurance is a great idea in case it doesn't work for you.

One of the problems with selecting a mask is that everyone is so very different. With different face shapes; different PAP pressures; different tolerance levels; different sleep environments; etc.; it is never an "apples-to-apples" comparison.

Good luck to you!

[andy5805]

Thanks guys for your heaps of advice. I now have more than a few pointers. Your posts read as people who have been there. Afterall, the whole idea of sleeping on side, without machine, is a good thing, and yet once you cross the line to full time hose face like we all have, then it becomes disadvantageous, not advantageous. I prefer side sleep because 1. I trained myself to do it when I was up brown creek without a paddle, and 2. so bad is back "supine" sleeping that even if I have a set of settings that work on my side, then put me on my back and all of a sudden, machine or not I'm in choke awake every second apnoea land again.

I did tinker with the idea of retraining myself to back sleeping again and upping the pressure, but then I thought, no, stupid idea, not only is more pressure more likely to pop nasal pillows, but it's just not a rational concept to adopt a sleep position that makes sleep apnoea worse.. when I have sleep apnoea, just to get around the fact my current mask likes me to stay still facing upwards

settings: was on epap 5, Ipap 14, for months and it worked really well until I got a swollen throat and the already enormous uvula and gene simmons tongue decided it was going to be so loud it could be heard in space and wake me up all night, Bipap or not

so following some advice I upped the Epap to 7.0 and the Ipap to 15, I figured with pressure support 4 or 5 the last settings, 5 and 14, the 14 was a false 14 anyway as it'd never be reached. Now I have 7, maybe it hits 14 or 14.5

and yes I'm on auto, so this needed pressure increase will have the side effect of increasing likleyhood of faceblasting jets of cold air when I wanna do side sleeping. I've literally got to nail it to my face with the straps (pull the mask, pull straps in while at same time pulling mask away from face, snap it back ) some nights. Bottom line is this mask does not support side sleeping, which is ridiculous , because back sleeping is the root of increased apnea

(all this said, I'd not dream of sleeping without it, I can slag it off for leaks but then I can also realise that a couple of hours on that mask while it's working is better than a whole night of "sleep" without the mask)

Thanks all for your advice, I'll really be looking into this

[LSAT]

IMO...The key to side sleeping is to have a firm pillow so the mask doesn't get buried. I have used a foam contour pillow and it worked, but several years ago I tried the buckwheat hull pillow and I love it. A couple months ago I ordered a second. Go to
pur-sleep.com and watch the video.

http://www.pur-sleep.com/products/prodD ... rch=&page=

[Wulfman...]

It appears that nobody has recommended the ResMed Ultra Mirage Full Face (UMFF) yet.
That's the one I would recommend. Make sure you get it sized correctly. They'll handle quite a bit of pressure.

Den

.

[John from Brookston]

Hi Andy!
I have tried 4 different masks before picking the Swift FX, and with all of them leakage and slippage was a function of pressure from the pillow dislodging the mask.
I now use one of those CPAP pillows with the moulded hollows so it doesn't push the mask out of the way. Even the FX stays in place when I sleep on my side.

[Sir NoddinOff]

I now use one of those CPAP pillows with the moulded hollows so it doesn't push the mask out of the way. Even the FX stays in place when I sleep on my side.

Side Note: On another thread somebody said they like the heavier buck wheat husk pillows from PurSleep. They are very firm and seem to hold up your face as you sidesleep so your mask doesn't dislodge so much. Anyway, it sounds like you're happy with the cut-out pillow which I've yet to try. Thought I'd mention an alternative.

[PST]

Thanks guys for your heaps of advice. I now have more than a few pointers. Your posts read as people who have been there. Afterall, the whole idea of sleeping on side, without machine, is a good thing, and yet once you cross the line to full time hose face like we all have, then it becomes disadvantageous, not advantageous. I prefer side sleep because 1. I trained myself to do it when I was up brown creek without a paddle, and 2. so bad is back "supine" sleeping that even if I have a set of settings that work on my side, then put me on my back and all of a sudden, machine or not I'm in choke awake every second apnoea land again.

I did tinker with the idea of retraining myself to back sleeping again and upping the pressure, but then I thought, no, stupid idea, not only is more pressure more likely to pop nasal pillows, but it's just not a rational concept to adopt a sleep position that makes sleep apnoea worse.. when I have sleep apnoea, just to get around the fact my current mask likes me to stay still facing upwards.

I couldn't agree more. If you current mask pushes you in the direction of back sleep instead of side sleep, change masks. A position that permits lower pressure is the best thing for leaks, and you've already trained yourself.

I have the Quattro and I find it very effective for side sleep. Unlike some other folks here, who have success hanging the mask core the edge of a stiff pillow, I do well burying it in a soft pillow. So-called "side sleep" pillows are are bigger and thicker than other pillows. On you side, they leave your neck in a nice straight line. I just snuggle in with my face pointed a little down into the pillow. Without the CPAP, I guess I'd suffocate, but fortunately my air is coming through a hose. So snuggling in just pushes the mask snugly against my face. It works for me, and maybe it'll work for you. CPAP is always trial and error.

[BlackSpinner]

I use the resp-care Hybrid and always sleep on my side. It basically hangs over the edge of the pillow. I did add an extra strap across the pillows to keep them in - a piece of light lingerie elastic. You might want to try that too.